2012 NCAA Test

[UmpTTS43]

NCAA Rule 6-1c

If a fair-hit ball passes by all infielders or it is touched by a fielder and then touches a runner or an umpire, the ball is in play and the runner is not out. If saidball should touch athe runner or umpire while still in flight, thereafter it shall be considered a ground ball. It cannot be caught as a fly ball.

Salaami, this is the rule, in conjunction with 8-5k, that states, unequivicably, that a runner is not out when touched by a deflected fair batted ball.

I got that part.. but when you read 8-5k.. it sounds different.. and is a touched ball not a deflected ball?...just like Jax just posted what if it is a line drive off the pitcher glove and goes foul, is it a foul ball? what if a pitcher deflectes the ball off his foot and it rolls foul? should that not be a fair ball?

Honestly, I don't get what you are trying to say. In both rules, it states that if a runner is touched by a fair ball, that was first touched by a fielder, he is not out, albeit using different verbage. Equipment worn properly is considered to be part of the fielder. That being said, it makes no difference if the ball goes off of his foot, glove, head or otherwise. In our Sitch, the status of the ball is determined where it was initially touched. If you don't have a fair ball after a ball touches any part of the pitcher, including his glove, and subsequently rolls foul, you really need to get out of baseball until you understand the rules and how they are applied. Within both rules, the wording of the ball being "touched" is the same as the ball being "deflected". You cannot have a "deflected" ball without if being "touched".

In the end, if you contend that if a ball deflects off of the pitcher and subsequently hits a runner, the runner is out you would be wrong. You have no rule support for that conclusion and, in the least, two rules that refute that belief.

Noone is perfect. The NCAA was wrong in it's answer to the question. That makes at least 5 by my count from this years test, not to mention an error in the new mechanics in their CCA manual. Errors like these from the national level like this should be nonexistent.

[Umpire in Chief]

Okay guys we're all on the same team here.

I do think this is a good discussion, but lets not get personal.

I think seeing multiple sides will help people.

In my non-NCAA working opinion, once deflected the ball is no longer a batted ball and the question (if I recall correctly) mentioned it was unintentional so I've got a whole lot of nothing.

[KyleUmp]

Not to take the heat off of Haid because he certainly deserves it, however in re-reading the entire thread I rescind my comment. My comment was made in a vacuum and without context to the question being asked. Anyway, sad to see this thread spiral like it has.

The NCAA has made a couple of errors on the this test. That's for sure.

[Haid D' Salaami]

NCAA Rule 6-1c

If a fair-hit ball passes by all infielders or it is touched by a fielder and then touches a runner or an umpire, the ball is in play and the runner is not out. If saidball should touch athe runner or umpire while still in flight, thereafter it shall be considered a ground ball. It cannot be caught as a fly ball.

Salaami, this is the rule, in conjunction with 8-5k, that states, unequivicably, that a runner is not out when touched by a deflected fair batted ball.

I got that part.. but when you read 8-5k.. it sounds different.. and is a touched ball not a deflected ball?...just like Jax just posted what if it is a line drive off the pitcher glove and goes foul, is it a foul ball? what if a pitcher deflectes the ball off his foot and it rolls foul? should that not be a fair ball?

Honestly, I don't get what you are trying to say. In both rules, it states that if a runner is touched by a fair ball, that was first touched by a fielder, he is not out, albeit using different verbage. Equipment worn properly is considered to be part of the fielder. That being said, it makes no difference if the ball goes off of his foot, glove, head or otherwise. In our Sitch, the status of the ball is determined where it was initially touched. If you don't have a fair ball after a ball touches any part of the pitcher, including his glove, and subsequently rolls foul, you really need to get out of baseball until you understand the rules and how they are applied. Within both rules, the wording of the ball being "touched" is the same as the ball being "deflected". You cannot have a "deflected" ball without if being "touched".

In the end, if you contend that if a ball deflects off of the pitcher and subsequently hits a runner, the runner is out you would be wrong. You have no rule support for that conclusion and, in the least, two rules that refute that belief.

Noone is perfect. The NCAA was wrong in it's answer to the question. That makes at least 5 by my count from this years test, not to mention an error in the new mechanics in their CCA manual. Errors like these from the national level like this should be nonexistent.

For the record, I agree with you on the rule.. I am just stating the test and the answer given to me by higher up's.... I think the why it is written in the PBUC maunal says it perfect.. But I still say that a touched ball shoudld be treated like a deflected ball, and the runner should be called out.. but also i think it all depends on if the runner had time to avoid being touched ball the ball.

[UmpTTS43]

For the record, I agree with you on the rule.. I am just stating the test and the answer given to me by higher up's.... I think the why it is written in the PBUC maunal says it perfect.. But I still say that a touched ball shoudld be treated like a deflected ball, and the runner should be called out.. but also i think it all depends on if the runner had time to avoid being touched ball the ball.

Maybe it's me having a hard time understanding your comments, but you just contradicted yourself in that statement. You agree with me on the rule, but say that a runner should be called out when hit by a touched or deflected ball. Which is it? I would question your higher ups and ask for clarification at the very least. A "touched" ball by a fielder is a "deflected" ball and it should be treated as such in all rules. The runner having time to avoid the ball has ZERO to do with the contact, unless the contact was intentional.

[noumpere]

But I still say that a touched ball shoudld be treated like a deflected ball, and the runner should be called out..

We all agree with the first part of that sentence because their the same thing but the second part doesnt seem to follow. Note also that the runner contacting the ball is treated differently than the runner cotacting the fielder (and I hope I didnt just add a whole nother wrench into this discussion).

[zm1283]

NCAA Rule 6-1c

If a fair-hit ball passes by all infielders or it is touched by a fielder and then touches a runner or an umpire, the ball is in play and the runner is not out. If saidball should touch athe runner or umpire while still in flight, thereafter it shall be considered a ground ball. It cannot be caught as a fly ball.

Salaami, this is the rule, in conjunction with 8-5k, that states, unequivicably, that a runner is not out when touched by a deflected fair batted ball.

I got that part.. but when you read 8-5k.. it sounds different.. and is a touched ball not a deflected ball?...just like Jax just posted what if it is a line drive off the pitcher glove and goes foul, is it a foul ball? what if a pitcher deflectes the ball off his foot and it rolls foul? should that not be a fair ball?

Honestly, I don't get what you are trying to say. In both rules, it states that if a runner is touched by a fair ball, that was first touched by a fielder, he is not out, albeit using different verbage. Equipment worn properly is considered to be part of the fielder. That being said, it makes no difference if the ball goes off of his foot, glove, head or otherwise. In our Sitch, the status of the ball is determined where it was initially touched. If you don't have a fair ball after a ball touches any part of the pitcher, including his glove, and subsequently rolls foul, you really need to get out of baseball until you understand the rules and how they are applied. Within both rules, the wording of the ball being "touched" is the same as the ball being "deflected". You cannot have a "deflected" ball without if being "touched".

In the end, if you contend that if a ball deflects off of the pitcher and subsequently hits a runner, the runner is out you would be wrong. You have no rule support for that conclusion and, in the least, two rules that refute that belief.

Noone is perfect. The NCAA was wrong in it's answer to the question. That makes at least 5 by my count from this years test, not to mention an error in the new mechanics in their CCA manual. Errors like these from the national level like this should be nonexistent.

Pardon me if this has been discussed, but which error is it?

[johnnyg08]

JM, I know you've been absent as a poster the last few months. Haid D' Salaami has been an extremely beneficial part of this forum since he joined in November.

His mechanics knowledge and rules knowledge are indicative of somebody who has been professionally trained and knows what he's talking about...from what I read of his posts, he seems to communicate what he knows in a manner that is a model of what I think matches Warren's vision.

Salami isn't a new poster. He has been here longer than November, albeit under a different name.

I guess I wouldn't have had any way of knowing that.

[UmpTTS43]

Noone is perfect. The NCAA was wrong in it's answer to the question. That makes at least 5 by my count from this years test, not to mention an error in the new mechanics in their CCA manual. Errors like these from the national level like this should be nonexistent.

Pardon me if this has been discussed, but which error is it?

Page 149. Three man mechanics. R1R3 U1 goes out. It states that if the ball is down, PU rotates to 3rd for any play on R1.

The new mechanics they taught at the national meetings and want implemented is that with R1R3, PU is to stay put at home regardless is someone goes out or not. If a BU goes out, the remaining BU has plays at all of the bases. On page 153 with R1R3 and U3 going out, they correctly have U1 having all plays on the bases.

When I contacted the appropriate person at the NCAA for clarification, I received an email stating that since this is new to everyone, we should go by the book. I have a hard time going with that since, not only were we instructed at length, with all other correspondence confirming the new mechaincs, no directive stating to go by the book has been given nationally. Maybe I'm the only one that actually read the changes in the CCA and found the discrepency.

[zm1283]

Noone is perfect. The NCAA was wrong in it's answer to the question. That makes at least 5 by my count from this years test, not to mention an error in the new mechanics in their CCA manual. Errors like these from the national level like this should be nonexistent.

Pardon me if this has been discussed, but which error is it?

Page 149. Three man mechanics. R1R3 U1 goes out. It states that if the ball is down, PU rotates to 3rd for any play on R1.

The new mechanics they taught at the national meetings and want implemented is that with R1R3, PU is to stay put at home regardless is someone goes out or not. If a BU goes out, the remaining BU has plays at all of the bases. On page 153 with R1R3 and U3 going out, they correctly have U1 having all plays on the bases.

When I contacted the appropriate person at the NCAA for clarification, I received an email stating that since this is new to everyone, we should go by the book. I have a hard time going with that since, not only were we instructed at length, with all other correspondence confirming the new mechaincs, no directive stating to go by the book has been given nationally. Maybe I'm the only one that actually read the changes in the CCA and found the discrepency.

I was actually perusing the CCA today and that was my one question going into the season. I noticed the difference and was going to bring it up on here. I couldn't figure out why when one BU went out, they wanted the PU to rotate, but when the other BU went out, they wanted the other BU to take everything on the bases.

[cookie]

Haid: "...I think the why (way?) it is written in the PBUC maunal says it perfect.."

This is the way the PBUC Manual says it perfectly word for word on pages 69 -70:

"7.5 BATTED BALL STRIKING THE RUNNER

The concept of the runner being in jeopardy after the ball goes past an infielder and strikes him in a situation where another fielder still has a chance to make a play on the ball applies ONLY when the ball PASSES the first infielder without being touched or deflected by him. This concept DOES NOT APPLY if the ball is touched or deflected by the infielder, even though another infielder has a chance to make a play on the ball.

In other words, after a ball has been touched (deflected) by any infielder (including the pitcher), if the ball then strikes a runner (unintentionally on the part of the runner), the ball is alive and in play even if another fielder may be in a position to field the ball. (See Official Baseball Rules 5.09(f) and 7.09(k).)

The reasoning for the above concept is that a runner cannot be expected to avoid a deflected ball while he is running and should not, therefore, be in jeopardy of being called out for being struck by such a deflected ball. Of course, a runner may still be guilty of intentional interference even after an infielder deflects the ball if he (the runner) deliberately deflects it or allows it to strike him when he could have reasonably avoided it. The fact that a ball has been deflected by an infielder should not be taken as a license for a runner to intentionally interfere. (See Official Baseball Rule 7.09(f) and (g).)

After a batted ball has been touched (deflected) by an infielder, if the ball then strikes a runner (unintentionally on the part of the runner), it is alive and in play despite the fact that another fielder may be in position to field the ball. This is not the case if a fielder is making a play on the ball. Specifically, if a batted ball is deflected by an infielder and another infielder has a play on the ball, the runner must must avoid the fielder. If the runner interferes with the fielder making a play - even though the ball has been touched by another fielder - the runner is declared out. Under the rules, the fielder making a play on a batted ball takes priority..."

As UmpJM has already said, this is the rule in all three codes, so it's hard to understand why NCAA would have the runner out unless they want students to read interference with the fielder into the play (which clearly doesn't come across in the original question).

[cookie]

Noone is perfect. The NCAA was wrong in it's answer to the question. That makes at least 5 by my count from this years test, not to mention an error in the new mechanics in their CCA manual. Errors like these from the national level like this should be nonexistent.

Pardon me if this has been discussed, but which error is it?

Page 149. Three man mechanics. R1R3 U1 goes out. It states that if the ball is down, PU rotates to 3rd for any play on R1.

The new mechanics they taught at the national meetings and want implemented is that with R1R3, PU is to stay put at home regardless is someone goes out or not. If a BU goes out, the remaining BU has plays at all of the bases. On page 153 with R1R3 and U3 going out, they correctly have U1 having all plays on the bases.

When I contacted the appropriate person at the NCAA for clarification, I received an email stating that since this is new to everyone, we should go by the book. I have a hard time going with that since, not only were we instructed at length, with all other correspondence confirming the new mechaincs, no directive stating to go by the book has been given nationally. Maybe I'm the only one that actually read the changes in the CCA and found the discrepency.

Thanks for the heads up on this. I'm currently reading the 2012 CCA 3-man, and I assumed the opposite. Since the base umpire went out, it reverts to the 2-man which would have the PU rotating to 3rd on an R1 & R3 situation. I'm signed up for a 3-Man week long clinic in two weeks and I'm certainly going to be asking about this...

[Haid D' Salaami]

Haid: "...I think the why (way?) it is written in the PBUC maunal says it perfect.."

As UmpJM has already said, this is the rule in all three codes, so it's hard to understand why NCAA would have the runner out unless they want students to read interference with the fielder into the play (which clearly doesn't come across in the original question).

I know the PBUC manual well it was my bible last summer..

All I am saying is my test said the runner is out, and the interp was a touched ball is the same as a deflected ball. where i read 8-5k...

[zm1283]

Haid: "...I think the why (way?) it is written in the PBUC maunal says it perfect.."

As UmpJM has already said, this is the rule in all three codes, so it's hard to understand why NCAA would have the runner out unless they want students to read interference with the fielder into the play (which clearly doesn't come across in the original question).

I know the PBUC manual well it was my bible last summer..

All I am saying is my test said the runner is out, and the interp was a touched ball is the same as a deflected ball. where i read 8-5k...

So did mine, and it was wrong.