You need to read the rules

[sdix00]

"You need to read the rules"

Just wondering how folks in here handle it when a coach or manager says this to you.

I have never EJ'd or even warned for this. But it seems like it crosses the line and needs to be addressed.

What think?

[grayhawk]

Depends on the situation, but in general, I would tell him that if he thinks I misapplied a rule, then he should play the game under protest and let's get the game going.

If its a parting shot and he is going back to the dugout (which is what I want him to be doing), then I wouldn't say anything. No reason to prolong the conversation.

[Guest]

Depends on situation, context, etc etc

Had a manager come out on me this past season, we went back and forth, he left, then decided to shout out at me just as I was getting set to restart the game:

"You need to learn the rules!" (tomato, tomatoe as it pertains to the OP)

He went.

Also, never invite a protest. Headaches you don't need, even if you're 100% right. Tell him to sit down and shut up (nicely of course) and dump them if they don't.

[UmpTTS43]

"You need to read the rules"

Just wondering how folks in here handle it when a coach or manager says this to you.

I have never EJ'd or even warned for this. But it seems like it crosses the line and needs to be addressed.

What think?

This statement is pretty much saying "you don't know what your doing". If you would eject for that then you should eject for the rules comment. Anybody above HS gets the whoosh on that automatically, unless it's one of those under-the-breath snips as skip is leaving and only he and I hear it. In HS I may give the coach a lesson and let him know that that type of comment is unacceptable and usually results in an ejection. Now he's learndt and should now know better.

[mrumpiresir]

I am the rules intepreter for my chapter. While I don't know everything, I know the rule book better than 99% of the coaches out there. If a coach says that to me, he is gone.

[mstaylor]

Also, never invite a protest. Headaches you don't need, even if you're 100% right. Tell him to sit down and shut up (nicely of course) and dump them if they don't.

I regularly invite managers to protest. I will have a conversation and once he repeats himself I tell him it's time to play or he needs to protest. It's no different than having an ejection report, we just have to justify our call. The protest rule is a ligitiment tool for managers that I think they should use if they believe they are correct. I think it is better to find out if they or the umpire was right. It sure beats them going home and saying the umpire was an idiot and he didn't know the rules.

[spiritump_b]

when the coach says ---YOU then a negative--he just caused his ejection

[jjb]

I'm with Hawk on this one: if he thinks I misapplied the rule, he needs to protest. This way, when his Director takes the relevant rule and staples it to his forehead, he'll learn something. Just letting him walk away solves nothing. You KNOW you're going to go home and read the rule to make sure you got it right. Anybody think HE'S going to read it? Nope, he's going to go through life thinking you blew it. I get emails from coaches all the time (usually from the U9 League), bit**ing about "the ball was hit and bounced on the plate, and YOUR Umpire called it Fair, and everybody knows..." I'd much rather they learn and make it easier for the next crew...

[Dean]

I agree that a protest is a valid rule for a team/manager. But I am never going to invite him to use it, just like I am never going to invite any other optional rule the coach legitimately can use. If he doesn’t know the rule then it’s his loss. Though depending of the situation he may be going home early.

Unless it is 110 degrees 80% humidity – may just make him suffer in the shaded dugout. LOL

[mstaylor]

I use it as a way to end the conversation. After I have explained it as far as I am going to explain it I ask if he wants to protest. If he says no, which is almost always, then I tell it's time to play and I walk away. This way I am approachable and I have done everything for him to fix the problem.

[kylejt]

"You need to read the rules"

An easy one. You put up your hand up with a "STOP" sing, and give him "That's enough". Any word out of his mouth after that, and he ejects himself. And that's the key. Let him do it to himself.

Like others have said, it really depends on the context. And your "That's enough" tone should follow suit. I promise you, I can get anyone to turn and look at me, and say something back, if I said it with the right force. Or, I could just chuckle, say "that's enough, (insert first name here)" and go on our merry way.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

A.M.F.

[NWA_UMP]

I have asked the coach to cite the rule he thinks I mis-applied. If he can we'll talk or he can file a protest, as stated earlier. If he can't or he inserts one of the many "rules" that coaches sometimes quote. I will ask him to return to his dugout and turn and walk away. I think context has a huge issue on his status in the game. I have never ejected a coach without him/her asking to be sent home. I always let them hang themselves.

[mstaylor]

I ask them to explain what they think I am missing. If it warrents a discussion then we have it, if not the conversation ends. If he has an argument then I will explain it to him, then ask if wants to protest or play baseball. I have absolutely no problem or fear of a protest.

[BigUmp56]

Kyle has the right technique here. I've used, "That's enough", in a number of situations as a successful way to shut down a coach or player before they eject themselves. It's a great way to put an end to their bitching, and keep them in the game.

Tim.

[TNCoach]

I spouted off something similar one time about knowing the rules if you are going to be umpiring big games as it was a non-conference game but a rivalry game of sorts as I coached the top team in the county in school ball and we were playing a team that our school hadn't played much before but was the a top team in our state's athletics who just happened to be from the city school.

We had dropped the first game of the double header on a no-hit bid that we broke up in the 7th with a single. That was our first loss of the season and just happened to be the only team we lost to. Anyway, in that second game we got down 4 early and had bases loaded with no body out. We have a 3-2 count and a pitch came in on the outside corner. My batter swung, foul-tipped the ball, and the ball went through the arm hole of the catcher's chest protector. PU called foul-tip, third strike on the catch. I argued the call and made a statement as I said above. We had tournaments starting the next week and by protesting I would have really messed up my rotation in having to replay from that point so I let it go. Down 4, there was no promise that we would win and I was more set on the conference championship than even what would have been viewed as a big upset.

The next year we did get some revenge as we beat this team in their invitational tournament by 11 in the championship of it.

[TNCoach]

The guy was a younger umpire so I also knew that he just didn't know.

[Replacematt]

The guy was a younger umpire so I also knew that he just didn't know.

There are ways to get this rectified without having to deal with replaying the game. Have a conversation with him, make sure you are in agreement with all relevant facts (in this case, ball was batted, went into chest protector,) and tell him you think the proper call should be a foul ball--and ask him to check with his partners on the rule. If he doesn't, then protest--he then HAS to go check. You can withdraw the protest after their conference, since you don't want to follow up on it anyway.

[TNCoach]

During the discussion I made the statement (I agree I shouldn't have during that time). He agreed the ball went into the chest protector but said since it never hit the ground it was out. He discussed it with his partner who was an older umpire. They came back and upheld the call without further explanation. It may be that the older umpire did not realize he had made the statement to me that the ball had gotten in the protector so he didn't tell him to change the call. Not really sure as when I asked for an explanation the BU just shouted to play ball.

That younger umpire is one who I always like having at games because he has really improved. He admitted to me a couple of games later in our season finale that he worked that he blew the call. He is a great umpire.

[Guest]

... It's a great way to put an end to their bitching, and keep them in the game.

Can someone please explain to me when it became our job to keep someone in the game?

To be completely honest, it seems to me like its a crock of crap statement used to justify a failure to pull a trigger in a situation where doing so would have been completely justified. Unless of course you're doing it to screw around with the guy and subject him to more punishment - I'm sure we've all kept, or thought about keeping, an individual in a game whose just looking for an excuse to go home when his team is playing like garbage and there's inclement weather, somewhere for him to be, etc etc.

Either you deem something ejectable or not. That line will be different for everyone, which is just fine in most circumstances. If they cross your line, get rid of them, unless you've got a good reason to make them stick around. This whole "I was able to teach them a lesson and not have to throw them out nonsense" - guess what - if you turf them, they have the rest of that game plus, in most leagues, the entire next game - which they're watching from the stands or the press box - to learn their lesson.

[mstaylor]

I have said many times that keeping a coach in the game is not our problem. However, we need to know the rules and how to explain them so it defuses the coach. We also have to not be confrontational causing the situation to escalate unnecessarily. If the coach doesn't take advantage of our attempt to talk him off the ledge then his leaving is on him, not me. Unfortunately many groups feel ejections are bad. Bad ejections are bad, ones where we didn't know the rule or the umpire lost his composure and helped cause the ejection. If you do your job and the coach insists on arguing then toss him and keep going, not our problem. Some guys feel that a coach questioning a call is a personal affront to them. I don't feel that way, there are times he needs to come out to do his job properly. If it is a situation where is logical for him to come out, I will have a reasoned discussion. If it isn't it is going to be a short conversation and his rope is going to be as short.

Any ejection should be reviewed, which is why we write reports, to decide if it was a good toss or not. If it is, tell the umpire so, if it isn't, explain what he did wrong.

[SAB_UIC_TX]

This is an excellent opportunity to work on your ejection mechanic.

I would try to head this off starting off asking the coach what he's got. Remember that a little knowledge is a very, very dangerous thing. If the coach asks a rules question or feels that the crew has misapplied a rule, discuss it with them. Keep your answer short and to the point, not a rules clinic answer. I don't want to ask the coach which rule he feels I've kicked nor do I ever want to suggest a protest. That's loading the gun and taking it off safety for them. Keep it simple, he comes at you with you need to learn the rules, dump him. if it's the parting under the breath shot that only he and i heard, I might still dump him.

[mstaylor]

I guess I am in the minority suggesting a coach protest. I know whenever I say it they using look shocked and run like hell. Most believe that protesting will piss the umpire off and calls will go against them. I assure you that is the last thing I'm thinking but they can think what they want. I don't think I have had over three protests in my life, I can only think of one but I can't believe that is all. I know I have never lost one.

[NWA_UMP]

I have suggested it to several coaches in the past. I always get something like what you are saying MS. Coaches seem to think it will be held against them. I had one coach tell me that If I didn't know the rule well enough to make the call, then I should not be working the game...I replied that if he thought I was wrong to protest. He just said unbeleiveable and walked off. I talked to him about 2 weeks later at another tourney and he apologized! He reread the rulebook on HBP and said I got it right. He argued a HBP could not result in an out...swinging 3rd strike on an upstairs curveball that hit the batter's hand...you know what he said...but blue, that hit him! Yes it did...he's out. But hands are part of the bat.... :tantrum:

[zm1283]

I guess I am in the minority suggesting a coach protest. I know whenever I say it they using look shocked and run like hell. Most believe that protesting will piss the umpire off and calls will go against them. I assure you that is the last thing I'm thinking but they can think what they want. I don't think I have had over three protests in my life, I can only think of one but I can't believe that is all. I know I have never lost one.

There is truth to this. I've had coaches tell me off the field that they hesitate to ask for check swing appeals (Or have their F2's ask) because they think it will piss the PU off, implying that he missed the swing in the first place. Some coaches are paranoid.

As for the OP, I threw a coach out of a high school summer game two summers ago for this exact thing. He thought the other team's BR should have been called out for runner's lane interference. He was not reasonable during our conversation, so after I explained the call, I shut him down and told him we were going to continue the game. He said something to me about "learning the rules" as he turned to walk away, but I ignored it since he was headed to the dugout. About half way to the dugout he turns around and says again "You need to learn the rules", so I dumped him.