How do you win the argument on a tag.

[theedeuce]

I was in the field calling my last regular season highschool game. We were in the 4th inning and I already had probably 4 or 5 banger calls. Finally I'm in the "B" postition when the catcher attempts to throw out runner on 1st stealing 2nd. Ball tails to the right and shortstop fields throw on the short hop and makes a swipe tag on the runners back. I call SAFE. Banger play no doubt but shortstop felt he had the out. Manager requests TIME (time was granted)... here comes the manager... casually walking in my direction. Manager calmly asked the question; "Tell me what you saw"?

To make a long story short, the managers argument was based on two conditions... (1) If you are watching at the ball then how can you see the bag? and (2) If you are watching the bag then how can you see the tag?... ...

The call stood as stated but I probably lost the argument... Please advise...

[BrianC14]

I was in the field calling my last regular season highschool game. We were in the 4th inning and I already had probably 4 or 5 banger calls. Finally I'm in the "B" postition when the catcher attempts to throw out runner on 1st stealing 2nd. Ball tails to the right and shortstop fields throw on the short hop and makes a swipe tag on the runners back. I call SAFE. Banger play no doubt but shortstop felt he had the out. Manager requests TIME (time was granted)... here comes the manager... casually walking in my direction. Manager calmly asked the question; "Tell me what you saw"?

To make a long story short, the managers argument was based on two conditions... (1) If you are watching at the ball then how can you see the bag? and (2) If you are watching the bag then how can you see the tag?... ...

The call stood as stated but I probably lost the argument... Please advise...

Keep it simple.

Never get wordy.

"I had a foot on the bag just before the tag."

If he asks again, just repeat it - or at least use words that say the same thing, such as, "His foot hit the bag first, and the tag was late."

What he's trying to do with the "watching the bag" bit is an old routine.

"I had the proper angle to see the whole play." (Again, keep it simple).

Trust me, these guys are trying to get you to say something they can use against you. Don't fall for it.

At repeat #3, shut down the argument and move on. Don't let them :WTF

[jjb]

You got suckered by the oldest trick in the book. He put you on the defensive, and cross-examined you into "losing the argument". Remember, there isn't an argument as far as your concerned. There's just your judgement.

Best way to "win" the argument? Don't get sucked into one. The answer to his question? "Got him late, Coach" and leave it there. Any other questions from him are answered with "Judgment Call, Coach, let's get back to the game".

[DirtyDawg]

Answer: "Coach, are you wanting to argue a judgement call?"

[BrianC14]

Answer: "Coach, are you wanting to argue a judgement call?"

If that's how you first respond to the question, "What did you see?" then I most certainly disagree with this.

He's asked a reasonable question. Give a reasonable answer.

The answer that is provided is, at best, defensive, at worst, argumentative.

The easy foil for this response is, "No, I'm not arguing anything! I'm simply asking what you saw."

So now YOU'VE just prolonged things here. Don't do it.

Give him an answer. "I saw the foot touch before the tag."

Easy, peasy lemon squeezy. :WTF

[jjb]

Brian's right: it makes you look like you're the agressor, and it'll look bad on the ej report, if it comes to that. He quietly asked a question: "What did you see?" You quietly responded : "Got him late, Coach".. or, "Tagged him high, Coach". (Or, "I got a tag Coach"). You answered it. If he needs more information, give it to him: "My Judgement, Coach". That's as far as it needs to go: in 7 words, you've answered his questions. Now, if you really have to, you can go back to your first and second answer as many times as you'd like. (But I wouldn't).

Personally, I wouldn't get into "his foot was on the bag before the tag on his back" response, because if he follows up with "Which foot, Blue?", (a) you're opening the conversation into using several more words, and ( I'd have probably forgotten the right answer, and "I don't remember" is not going to help.. That's why I keep it bland.

[kcfan102]

I was given a great peice of advice this year. It goes a long with what was already said.

"You can't quote silence."

Meaning, watch what you say. If you go off on a tangent whether it be an argument or a discussion, or say specifically what you saw, a manager might just bury you in it.

What Brian said was great, keep it simple. Don't say more than you need. DO NOT ANSWER HIS QUESTION WITH ANOTHER QUESTION. You would be baiting him, unless that's what you want.

But I hate these questions: "What did you see?" or "Tell me what you saw."

I've never had an instance where a foot beat a tag and I had an out. Conversely, I've never had a tag before a foot and called them safe. One of these days, I might just say that and see what happens :WTF

[jjb]

In my real job, I have to answer Deposition Questions from a host of attorneys who are waiting (and baiting) for me to say something Galactically Stupid. It's almost an Art Form, when, after listening to a 4-paragraph, 6-minute question, I can answer with: "No".

To paraphrase KC: You'll never get in trouble for what you don't say.....

[Guest]

1) Never argue. Always discuss. When king rat wants to argue, the discussion ends.

2) Even if you consider it an "argument", we always win.

3) When explaining a call, report the facts. We call it the way we saw it, and what we saw was ...

4) Don't talk to much.

5) Say calm and relaxed. Showing emotion will be the blood in the water sooner or later when dealing with "that" manager.

Above all else, be honest.

[yawetag]

To make a long story short, the managers argument was based on two conditions... (1) If you are watching at the ball then how can you see the bag? and (2) If you are watching the bag then how can you see the tag?... ...

"Coach, using that logic, how could you tell if my judgment was wrong?"

[theedeuce]

Good advice guys and I'll be sure to put it into good practice next time. The manager was calm but I could tell by his demeanor he was playing devils advocate with me. He asked a ligitimate question and challenged my answer. Very witty with his discussion and my hat was off to him. He never got out of hand but its stuff like this that I take home with me and learn from.

[Tyennie]

One more thought: If after your explanation, he still has his doubts, finish with "If i see it again i might call it the other way, let's play ball" and walk away. if he follows - Goodbye!

[kwiggie]

One more thought: If after your explanation, he still has his doubts, finish with "If i see it again i might call it the other way, let's play ball" and walk away. if he follows - Goodbye!

I don't think I would ever say somthing like this, If I see the same play again I am getting the same result whether it works to his favor or not.

[Mike Prince]

I don't think I would ever say somthing like this, If I see the same play again I am getting the same result whether it works to his favor or not.

I second this. All the comment will do is keep the discussion alive and create more doubt as to whether the call was correct or not. Plus it hints that if the coach goes away you may rule in his favor next time. Just tell him what you had, end the discussion quickly, play ball.

[catoblue]

One more thought: If after your explanation, he still has his doubts, finish with "If i see it again i might call it the other way, let's play ball" and walk away. if he follows - Goodbye!

I'd steer clear of this one too. This tells him that you "think you may have gotten it wrong", opening a whole new can of worms and additional discussion.

A simple "he beat(or got under) the tag", or "the tag was late" are all you need for the first question, and on the followup question, the answer is "That's my judgment, now lets play ball". If he had persisted after that, then he gets the obligatory "that's enough", with an EJ if he persists after that.

In a nutshell, you have reasonably answered his "what did you see?" question, which was reasonable in the OP sitch, then you told him that it's a judgment call, which he "should" know is not to be argued, and finally you give him one more chance with "that's enough" before dumping him.

[jjb]

One more thought: If after your explanation, he still has his doubts, finish with "If i see it again i might call it the other way, let's play ball" and walk away. if he follows - Goodbye!

Bad Idea. The coach orignally tried to make the subject of the conversation YOU, (What did YOU see", and you've deftly switched it to The Play: "Got him late." Congratulations, you've just won the "argument":yippie:.

"I may call it different if I see it again". You've just admitted to him that you got it wrong, and have just turned the subject of the conversation away from the play, "Got him late, Judgement Call", and back onto you. You're now back where you started.

Keep it away from you, and where it belongs.

[Tyennie]

interesting food for thought. I have actually never employed said comment. It was suggested to me several yrs ago by another senior umpire.

[Guest]

Said senior umpire did not consider the fact that a coach may be smart enough ... wait - let me stop myself here: I just used the phrase "smart enough" proceeding "coach". What's gotten into me today?

Anyways, said statement leaves open the potential for one to be asked

"If you know you may have called it another way next time, why are you sticking with it this time?"

But I know that because I'm an umpire and I'm smarter than coaches.

[mstaylor]

I had a tag discussion the other day. Probably the fastest kid in the conference got thrown out trying to steal home on a passed ball. The manager came down from third and calmly asked me,"Didn't he get him on the hip?" Absolutely coach, look was priceless. He said then he's safe. I told him no, he was tagged before he reached the plate. He says you can see his slide marks right to the plate. I told him I never said he didn't get there, just that he got tagged before he did. The manager then says," Well if you tell me he got tagged on the hip you know I have to come down and discuss it." I told him sure enough but it won't change anything. The next inning, the seventh, he stops by and again explained why he came down, almost like saying he was sorry. I told him I expect on certain plays his job requires him to come down, not a problem. He never got out of line, never raised his voice, it was all good. Now his fans lost their minds. They are so bad he has passed a rule that they can not talk to an umpire at the game, period. I am friends with many of them but they are restricted from discussing a game with an official even away from the game.

[kcfan102]

Geez I hate it when coaches say this.

"TAG WAS HIGH BLUE!"

It's not a question of where, it's a question of when.

:HS

[DirtyDawg]

I had a tag discussion the other day. Probably the fastest kid in the conference got thrown out trying to steal home on a passed ball. The manager came down from third and calmly asked me,"Didn't he get him on the hip?" Absolutely coach, look was priceless. He said then he's safe. I told him no, he was tagged before he reached the plate. He says you can see his slide marks right to the plate. I told him I never said he didn't get there, just that he got tagged before he did. The manager then says," Well if you tell me he got tagged on the hip you know I have to come down and discuss it." I told him sure enough but it won't change anything. The next inning, the seventh, he stops by and again explained why he came down, almost like saying he was sorry. I told him I expect on certain plays his job requires him to come down, not a problem. He never got out of line, never raised his voice, it was all good. Now his fans lost their minds. They are so bad he has passed a rule that they can not talk to an umpire at the game, period. I am friends with many of them but they are restricted from discussing a game with an official even away from the game.

That's a rule I'm probably going to use with my Ass. Coach, fans, and players this year. I don't want anybody who has never umpired before to be allowed to talk to someone who is doing a job the best they can.