HBP ...lots of discussion

[Thunderheads]

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=19876951

[BigUmp56]

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...ent_id=19876951

I've watched the clip several times and still can't tell if the PU pointed to first for a HBP, or went to first for a checkswing appeal on the D3K. I have a hard time believing that any other member of the crew would have tried to convince the PU that it was a HBP. This was a fustercluck.

Tim.

[Kevin Finnerty]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell, definitively, that the pitch hit him. And even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

[Thunderheads]

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...ent_id=19876951

I've watched the clip several times and still can't tell if the PU pointed to first for a HBP, or went to first for a checkswing appeal on the D3K. I have a hard time believing that any other member of the crew would have tried to convince the PU that it was a HBP. This was a fustercluck.

Tim.

In the video, you can clearly hear Vanover point to Jim Wolf, ..he says ... " Jim ?" So he's asking on a swing ....but watch Martinez...you can see him whince, and hear him 'grunt' when it hits him.....I think

[Thunderheads]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell that the pitch hit him, and even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

Kev, ... I think it hit him ....think about it ....Martinez whinces, groans, Napoli doesn't go after the ball ....why? See what I mean ?

Oh yes, the arguement-solving three -run blast was great, ....................UNTIL the game ending granny!!:tantrum:

[BigUmp56]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell that the pitch hit him, and even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

I think the real problem was that the PU blew the D3K and checkswing mechanic, and they had to go with HBP so it didn't look so bad. And if it was a HBP initially, where was the call of "time"?

Tim.

[BigUmp56]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell that the pitch hit him, and even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

Kev, ... I think it hit him ....think about it ....Martinez whinces, groans, Napoli doesn't go after the ball ....why? See what I mean ?

Oh yes, the arguement-solving three -run blast was great, ....................UNTIL the game ending granny!!

So, you think he was going to first to see if he had a dead ball swinging strike rather than a HBP.

No swing = HBP

Swing = Dead ball swinging strike.

That makes sense.

Tim.

[zm1283]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell that the pitch hit him, and even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

Kev, ... I think it hit him ....think about it ....Martinez whinces, groans, Napoli doesn't go after the ball ....why? See what I mean ?

Oh yes, the arguement-solving three -run blast was great, ....................UNTIL the game ending granny!!

So, you think he was going to first to see if he had a dead ball swinging strike rather than a HBP.

No swing = HBP

Swing = Dead ball swinging strike.

That makes sense.

Tim.

It looked to me like he was going to U1 for the check swing. In either of your scenarios, I still would have called time first. You can always go to U1 after you call time.

[BigUmp56]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell that the pitch hit him, and even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

Kev, ... I think it hit him ....think about it ....Martinez whinces, groans, Napoli doesn't go after the ball ....why? See what I mean ?

Oh yes, the arguement-solving three -run blast was great, ....................UNTIL the game ending granny!!

So, you think he was going to first to see if he had a dead ball swinging strike rather than a HBP.

No swing = HBP

Swing = Dead ball swinging strike.

That makes sense.

Tim.

It looked to me like he was going to U1 for the check swing. In either of your scenarios, I still would have called time first. You can always go to U1 after you call time.

Good answer. He would had to have done some really quick thinking, but you're right that he probably should have gone that route.

Tim.

[yawetag]

I've watched the clip several times and still can't tell if the PU pointed to first for a HBP, or went to first for a checkswing appeal on the D3K. I have a hard time believing that any other member of the crew would have tried to convince the PU that it was a HBP. This was a fustercluck.

For one, it wasn't close to a check swing. Secondly, I wouldn't even go to the appeal until the play's complete, especially since you've got a catcher going after a passed ball (if it wasn't HBP).

I think he was signaling a HBP.

[Thunderheads]

I've watched the clip several times and still can't tell if the PU pointed to first for a HBP, or went to first for a checkswing appeal on the D3K. I have a hard time believing that any other member of the crew would have tried to convince the PU that it was a HBP. This was a fustercluck.

For one, it wasn't close to a check swing. Secondly, I wouldn't even go to the appeal until the play's complete, especially since you've got a catcher going after a passed ball (if it wasn't HBP).

I think he was signaling a HBP.

Andrew, ...I understand your thinking here ........... but listen to the clip at 2:29 and listen ....Martinez grunts as if it hit him, Vanover, "ball" ...then he points to Wolf "Jim?" Then keep watching, you'll see a pressbox view and you can see Jim Wolf giving the safe sign after Vanover asks for the swing.....

[Thunderheads]

Something I didn't notice first time through .........

Listen to Joe Buck .......he's saying dead ball when there was no 'time called' and then he says Vanover said it was called dead immediately ?? What an a__hole

He does rectify it a little bit after it stops, but WOW .... talk about bad timing ?

[Kevin Finnerty]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell that the pitch hit him, and even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

Kev, ... I think it hit him ....think about it ....Martinez whinces, groans, Napoli doesn't go after the ball ....why? See what I mean ?

Oh yes, the arguement-solving three -run blast was great, ....................UNTIL the game ending granny!!

I meant that the umpires other than the PU could not have definitively seen it. It had to be the PU's call. It was a glance off the fabric. You have to see/hear it, or it has to be definitive. Sometimes we can tell from out there because of a change of speed or direction of the ball. The change of direction came from it hitting Napoli.

So they conferred and decided that it probably hit him, based on his and Napoli's actions, so let's put R2 back on second.

[mstaylor]

It is very difficult to rule on the HBP because it was either very slight or it didn't happen. Unless he has a HBP he can't kill the ball. The PU can't see the hit because the catcher slide to block it and batter stepped weird. The batter reacted as if it hit him which is why they ended up with that call. The battery screwed up because they have to play until the umpire says different. It's like the play a few years ago where the fielder stopped to argue with the umpire instead of trying to get an out. Play the ball until told otherwise. I think the crew did it as well as they could.

[carolinablue]

All I know is I lost 5 bucks on the play. I bet my wife Leyland would be gone after that one. I can't believe he stayed. He must have been in play-off behavior mode or something.

[Astrosdawg07]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell that the pitch hit him, and even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

Kev, ... I think it hit him ....think about it ....Martinez whinces, groans, Napoli doesn't go after the ball ....why? See what I mean ?

Oh yes, the arguement-solving three -run blast was great, ....................UNTIL the game ending granny!!

I meant that the umpires other than the PU could not have definitively seen it. It had to be the PU's call. It was a glance off the fabric. You have to see/hear it, or it has to be definitive. Sometimes we can tell from out there because of a change of speed or direction of the ball. The change of direction came from it hitting Napoli.

So they conferred and decided that it probably hit him, based on his and Napoli's actions, so let's put R2 back on second.

Any chance the other umpires went off of the reaction of Martinez and Napoli? More less an educated guess?

[Thunderheads]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell that the pitch hit him, and even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

Kev, ... I think it hit him ....think about it ....Martinez whinces, groans, Napoli doesn't go after the ball ....why? See what I mean ?

Oh yes, the arguement-solving three -run blast was great, ....................UNTIL the game ending granny!!

I meant that the umpires other than the PU could not have definitively seen it. It had to be the PU's call. It was a glance off the fabric. You have to see/hear it, or it has to be definitive. Sometimes we can tell from out there because of a change of speed or direction of the ball. The change of direction came from it hitting Napoli.

So they conferred and decided that it probably hit him, based on his and Napoli's actions, so let's put R2 back on second.

Any chance the other umpires went of the reaction of Martinez and Napoli? More less an educated guess?

See what Kevin said in bold......

[mazzamouth]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell that the pitch hit him, and even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

I think the real problem was that the PU blew the D3K and checkswing mechanic, and they had to go with HBP so it didn't look so bad. And if it was a HBP initially, where was the call of "time"?

Tim.

Well he didnt blow the checkswing mechanic BTW...that is what your suppose to do on a U3K

[mazzamouth]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell, definitively, that the pitch hit him. And even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

how is sending him to 1st not an option? the batter got HBP... and sticking his foot out there was not intentional.

[Kevin Finnerty]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell, definitively, that the pitch hit him. And even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

how is sending him to 1st not an option? the batter got HBP... and sticking his foot out there was not intentional.

You're going by how it looked, and reading intent. That's your opinion, not a fact.

I am going by the way it looked and it looked awful, and I read intent. Even if it wasn't really intentional, it was lame, and I keep the guy in the box. That's my opinion, not a fact.

Now, if you want to have the guy come on here and tell us all he didn't intend it, then I'll change my view. But since all I have is my judgement, I say he stuck his foot out there and caused the ball to hit him, and I would be keeping him there---if I had seen/heard it hit him.

[plateumpire29]

I looked at that thing frame by frame and his back foot wound up at least partially behind the plate.It looked pretty intentional to me. I'm assuming it hit him because of his reaction, killing the ball and keeping him at the plate, and sending Cabrera back to second. I might even call it a strike to let everyone know that sort of monkey business won't be tolerated

[UmpTTS43]

I looked at that thing frame by frame and his back foot wound up at least partially behind the plate.It looked pretty intentional to me. I'm assuming it hit him because of his reaction, killing the ball and keeping him at the plate, and sending Cabrera back to second. I might even call it a strike to let everyone know that sort of monkey business won't be tolerated

Yeah, just make **** up. That'll teach him.

I haven't worked a game where I was able to process a pitch frame by frame. Not that good.

It is apparent to me that PU did not have a HBP and had the pitch a ball. When F2 requested he go for help, he did. Once the play was over, the crew met and it was determined that there was a HBP and the runners were placed accordingly.

Way too much over analysis.

[johnnyg08]

No matter what, that's a tough, tough call. The batter's reaction indicates that he got hit by the pitch.

Try getting that one right w/ only two umpires...you'd probably end up making the same call...tough, tough call.

[UmpTTS43]

No matter what, that's a tough, tough call. The batter's reaction indicates that he got hit by the pitch.

Try getting that one right w/ only two umpires...you'd probably end up making the same call...tough, tough call.

With that I will agree.

[Thunderheads]

I looked at that thing frame by frame and his back foot wound up at least partially behind the plate.It looked pretty intentional to me. I'm assuming it hit him because of his reaction, killing the ball and keeping him at the plate, and sending Cabrera back to second. I might even call it a strike to let everyone know that sort of monkey business won't be tolerated

you're going to say that Martinez moved his BACK FOOT into the pitch??? Please!!