Mechanics on this appeal situation

[jnazz]

The following is a situation taken from JR.

EG: R1, R3, one out, home team at bat, fifth inning. Squeeze play; runners stealing on the pitch. The batter attempts to bunt over the head of the charging first baseman. He pops the ball over the first baseman's head, but the pitcher makes a spectacular catch (taking attention away from R3). R3 touches home as the catch is made. He sees that R1 will be out easily, and he proceeds quietly to his dugout. The pitcher tosses the ball to first base for an easy retouch appeal, and R1 is the third out. The pitcher's trainer and manager sprint onto the field to check their pitcher for injury. A normal change of half-innings ensues; no one, including the plate umpire, deals with R3's failure to retouch or his run (which obviously scored before the third out - a time play). After nine innings, the scoreboard says the score is 2-2, and the visiting team eventually wins by an apparent score of 4-2 after 12 innings. In their locker room after the game, the umpires discuss the fifth inning double play, and realize that the run scored. They must inform the official scorer and the two managers that the home team won the game in eight-and-a-half innings by a score of 3-2.

My question is -- What does PU do in this situation? Does he announce "Run Scores, Run Scores!" as he would do on a regular "close" time play? Or not make any mention of it until the defence can no longer appeal, and then announce it?

Help, this kept me up last night!

[Rich Ives]

The following is a situation taken from JR.

EG: R1, R3, one out, home team at bat, fifth inning. Squeeze play; runners stealing on the pitch. The batter attempts to bunt over the head of the charging first baseman. He pops the ball over the first baseman's head, but the pitcher makes a spectacular catch (taking attention away from R3). R3 touches home as the catch is made. He sees that R1 will be out easily, and he proceeds quietly to his dugout. The pitcher tosses the ball to first base for an easy retouch appeal, and R1 is the third out. The pitcher's trainer and manager sprint onto the field to check their pitcher for injury. A normal change of half-innings ensues; no one, including the plate umpire, deals with R3's failure to retouch or his run (which obviously scored before the third out - a time play). After nine innings, the scoreboard says the score is 2-2, and the visiting team eventually wins by an apparent score of 4-2 after 12 innings. In their locker room after the game, the umpires discuss the fifth inning double play, and realize that the run scored. They must inform the official scorer and the two managers that the home team won the game in eight-and-a-half innings by a score of 3-2.

My question is -- What does PU do in this situation? Does he announce "Run Scores, Run Scores!" as he would do on a regular "close" time play? Or not make any mention of it until the defence can no longer appeal, and then announce it?

Help, this kept me up last night!

Do what you would normally do. To do otherwise is to signal something is amiss.

[UmpJM]

jnazz,

Wait until the defense appeals (rule on the appeal) or has lost it's right to appeal.

If the defense leaves the field without appealing, point at the plate and say, "Score that run, score that run, that run scores!"

JM

[UmpTTS43]

I would "Score that run" as soon as the third out is recorded. It is still a time play. The defense still has the opportunity to appeal. If they successfully appeal, then "No run scores."

[Thunderheads]

Hi, ...it's me, the rules-dumba$$

There are already 3 outs, the inning is over at the point of F1 tossing the ball to F3 for the retouch and out number 3 on R1. How can the defense stop , or, discount the run that has already scored?

I know I'm missing something, but be gentle, please....

[yawetag]

There are already 3 outs, the inning is over at the point of F1 tossing the ball to F3 for the retouch and out number 3 on R1. How can the defense stop , or, discount the run that has already scored?

OBR 7.10. Just before the Comment: Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.†If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field†when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.

[Thunderheads]

There are already 3 outs, the inning is over at the point of F1 tossing the ball to F3 for the retouch and out number 3 on R1. How can the defense stop , or, discount the run that has already scored?

OBR 7.10. Just before the Comment: Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.

Ahh, ....so the defense foregoes the runner at first, and appeals the retouch of R3 who "scored" on the play .........I see, ...thanks Andrew!:notworthy:

[mstaylor]

The apparent fourth out appeal is why you wait to announce the run scoring until the defense loses their right to appeal.

[Mr Umpire]

The apparent fourth out appeal is why you wait to announce the run scoring until the defense loses their right to appeal.

I don't think so in this case. The reason is not to tip off the defense. If you do it on 1 runner and then not on the next, they might clue in. It needs to be done every time there is a time play so the defense is forced to pay attention. If they don't, the umpire's actions should not clue them in. As soon as R3 crosses the plate and the 3rd out is recorded, the umpire needs to be telling scorekeeper "Score that run. Run scores." and wait for the appeal. Then, once successful, turn to the scorekeeper and say "No run scores. Run does not score."

[noumpere]

I don't think so in this case. The reason is not to tip off the defense. If you do it on 1 runner and then not on the next, they might clue in. It needs to be done every time there is a time play so the defense is forced to pay attention. If they don't, the umpire's actions should not clue them in. As soon as R3 crosses the plate and the 3rd out is recorded, the umpire needs to be telling scorekeeper "Score that run. Run scores." and wait for the appeal. Then, once successful, turn to the scorekeeper and say "No run scores. Run does not score."

Thats only true if the time between the run scoring and the third out is very close and I admit thats a subjective term. After all if theres a runner at third and the batter is thrown out at second trying for a double, you dont announce that the run scores. That would be like calling a large CATCH BATTERS OUT on a routine fly ball.

I read the original post as being a long time between the run crossing the plate and the appeal out, so I wouldnt say anything until the defense had left the field.

[Mr Umpire]

I don't think so in this case. The reason is not to tip off the defense. If you do it on 1 runner and then not on the next, they might clue in. It needs to be done every time there is a time play so the defense is forced to pay attention. If they don't, the umpire's actions should not clue them in. As soon as R3 crosses the plate and the 3rd out is recorded, the umpire needs to be telling scorekeeper "Score that run. Run scores." and wait for the appeal. Then, once successful, turn to the scorekeeper and say "No run scores. Run does not score."

Thats only true if the time between the run scoring and the third out is very close and I admit thats a subjective term. After all if theres a runner at third and the batter is thrown out at second trying for a double, you dont announce that the run scores. That would be like calling a large CATCH BATTERS OUT on a routine fly ball.

I read the original post as being a long time between the run crossing the plate and the appeal out, so I wouldnt say anything until the defense had left the field.

I think there is a huge difference from something everyone knows and sees to something no one is looking at and obscure like this. In this case, either they forgot about R3 or thought the play at 1B removes it as a force play. I would inform immediately since it is not obvious to everyone and it was shown by the OP. I'd announce and see what happens. To me, this is not as obvious as an obvious catch. Plus, it isn't a normal routine play to occur on the field. I'd do it the same so no one does catch on when something is done differently. I'd say "Score the run" on something like this and let them figure out if there is a possible appeal after the 3rd out is made. That part I would not be telling them but I would let them know the play at 1B was a time play the same as if it were close.

Waiting until after is not giving them all the info needed and makes them think the umpire is not scoring the run. Then, after they can't appeal, the umpire decides to score it and they have no chance at an appeal b/c the umpire chose not to give all the info necessary on the play. To me, that is the umpire misleading everyone on the field and holding back necessary info.

[mstaylor]

To be honest, I always wait until the defense clears before I announce the run scoring, there's no rush so I wait.

[UmpTTS43]

To be honest, I always wait until the defense clears before I announce the run scoring, there's no rush so I wait.

There is no reason to wait until the defense leaves. Either the runs scores after the play has been completed or it doesn't. It is our job to distinguish this difference. Whether an appeal is possible or not has no bearing on the current situation. The only time I will wait on making a call is when the defense has lost their opportunity to appeal when there is a missed tag missed plate situation where there is a subsequent play where the third out is made on another runner and the defense leaves the field. Never seen nor heard of this happening. Closest situation that comes to mind is where there are two runners attempting to score. First runner misses plate while play being made on him, second runner is tagged out. In this situation, it is correct to make a non call at home and let continuing action ensue. Once the third out is recorded and the defense loses it's right to appeal, it is our responsibility to inform the scorekeeper on the status of said last run.

[JaxRolo]

Just curious to know. How often do you get a 4th out appeal situation.

I personally have never had that situation come up.

[Mr Umpire]

Just curious to know. How often do you get a 4th out appeal situation.

I personally have never had that situation come up.

I have twice. Neither happened but it could have.

[jnazz]

Just curious to know. How often do you get a 4th out appeal situation.

I personally have never had that situation come up.

Had one in a college game this season.

[mstaylor]

The situation isn't all that uncommon, coach knowing enough to ask, never. :)

[Cactus]

jnazz,

Wait until the defense appeals (rule on the appeal) or has lost it's right to appeal.

If the defense leaves the field without appealing, point at the plate and say, "Score that run, score that run, that run scores!"

JM

You need to make a ruling on the time play when it occurs.

[UmpJM]

Cactus,

No, you do not.

JM

[Cactus]

Cactus,

No, you do not.

JM

Well of course you don't need to make a ruling immediately. What I meant to say was that the proper mechanic would be to rule on the time play immediately.

[UmpJM]

Cactus,

Why do you think that?

I don't see where there is any "urgency" to giving the mechanic and feel like doing so could "unfairly" tip off the defense that they might wish to appeal the R3's failure to retouch on the catch.

What' your rationale?

JM

[Cactus]

Cactus,

Why do you think that?

I don't see where there is any "urgency" to giving the mechanic and feel like doing so could "unfairly" tip off the defense that they might wish to appeal the R3's failure to retouch on the catch.

What' your rationale?

JM

I'm sorry. I did not read the play correctly. I was thinking the runner scored just before the out but he actually scored well before the out.

[jnazz]

So I see that there's a lot of conflicting opinions.

Does anyone have any manual situation or resource regarding a "4th out" appeal like this one?

I searched through my Evans and Wendelstedt books and found nothing. JR has the play and correct ruling but no mechanic tips.

[yawetag]

Does anyone have any manual situation or resource regarding a "4th out" appeal like this one?

More specific. Do you want one where the runner missed home plate well ahead of the third out, or right as the third out's made? Are you wanting the mechanics for scoring/not scoring the run or the 4th out appeal?

[jnazz]

Does anyone have any manual situation or resource regarding a "4th out" appeal like this one?

More specific. Do you want one where the runner missed home plate well ahead of the third out, or right as the third out's made? Are you wanting the mechanics for scoring/not scoring the run or the 4th out appeal?

I want a mechanic for what to do in a "4th out" situation. Specifically, the original "4th out" situation in this topic. I am aware of what to do if the defense properly appeals a "4th out".

My issue is whether we tip off the defense (by announcing "Run Scores!") or not.

I have found several time play situations in JR's 100 Problems Manual (ie: Runner returning to touch home after missing it as the 3rd out occurs). But I cannot find anything regarding mechanics.