Balk ...

[Thunderheads]

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=19841951&topic_id=25370668&c_id=mlb

[BigUmp56]

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...370668&c_id=mlb

Not a balk I would have called. The movement to step off and the movement to separate hands were almost simultaneous. Not a nit I'd pick in an amature game.

Tim.

[Thunderheads]

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...370668&c_id=mlb

Not a balk I would have called. The movement to step off and the movement to separate hands were almost simultaneous. Not a nit I'd pick in an amature game.

Tim.

Heck no, ...not at our level!

But, I have a quick question ........ I don't have time to look up 805, but, .... IF indeed the hands and feet move at the same time....is that a balk?

Forget it ...I believe it to be 8.05 (J)

[jim knight]

That is a clear balk... should be called IMO at all levels of play. Why would you let this go?

[BigUmp56]

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...370668&c_id=mlb

Not a balk I would have called. The movement to step off and the movement to separate hands were almost simultaneous. Not a nit I'd pick in an amature game.

Tim.

Heck no, ...not at our level!

But, I have a quick question ........ I don't have time to look up 805, but, .... IF indeed the hands and feet move at the same time....is that a balk?

Forget it ...I believe it to be 8.05 (J)

He's supposed to step off first. So, technically there's little doubt that this was a balk.

Tim.

[BigUmp56]

That is a clear balk... should be called IMO at all levels of play. Why would you let this go?

Because I believe it's a ticky-tac call to make. Had he broken his hands first and then stepped off, I would have called it. But I'm not going to get that particular if I see an amature pitcher break his hands while he's stepping off. Calling ticky-tac balks is a sure way to ruin a ball game.

Would you call a balk on a pitcher you believed was taking signs while off the rubber *provided* he didn't quick pitch? I'd hope that you wouldn't, and this is similar - IMHO.

Tim.

[Thunderheads]

That is a clear balk... should be called IMO at all levels of play. Why would you let this go?

Been to TOO many chicken festivals ..... You get this technical w/ u12 ....you're going to be there ALL day long.;)

[noumpere]

That is a clear balk... should be called IMO at all levels of play. Why would you let this go?

Its much the same I think as a lefthanded pitcher doing the 'step back and snap throw' to first move. The foot is supposed to hit the ground before the hands are separated but in practice the move is allowed as long as the foot hits the ground before the throw. Its very difficult to learn to call (or not call) balks at the amateur level most do by watching major league baseball.

[grayhawk]

That is a clear balk... should be called IMO at all levels of play. Why would you let this go?

Because I believe it's a ticky-tac call to make. Had he broken his hands first and then stepped off, I would have called it. But I'm not going to get that particular if I see an amature pitcher break his hands while he's stepping off. Calling ticky-tac balks is a sure way to ruin a ball game.

Would you call a balk on a pitcher you believed was taking signs while off the rubber *provided* he didn't quick pitch? I'd hope that you wouldn't, and this is similar - IMHO.

Tim.

I hope nobody would, because that's not a balk - not even a "technical" one. It falls under the category of "don't do that."

[Umpy]

Watching this on TV with no sound at a bar, I knew immediately why they called the balk, but even in the replays I couldn't see it well enough that I could have called it if they hadn't said anything, the movements were really close together. I think I wouldn't have called it out of uncertainty.

[Rich Ives]

Gross balk.

Hands broke before the foot moved.

[mstaylor]

No, I wouldn't call it on little kids but 13 and above, sure.

[jim knight]

Good subject... seems some tend to let things go because of the age or skill of the players / makes sense but I really do not like kids comming up with bad habbits only to find out that the umpire let it go! That all being said I am not into creating problems in a game but a balk is a balk at any level... most leagues are over 13ish before we use any balk rule.

[Mr Umpire]

Good subject... seems some tend to let things go because of the age or skill of the players / makes sense but I really do not like kids comming up with bad habbits only to find out that the umpire let it go! That all being said I am not into creating problems in a game but a balk is a balk at any level... most leagues are over 13ish before we use any balk rule.

I understand but letting some go is the difference between a 5 inning game or a 2 inning game.

[Thunderheads]

Good subject... seems some tend to let things go because of the age or skill of the players / makes sense but I really do not like kids comming up with bad habbits only to find out that the umpire let it go! That all being said I am not into creating problems in a game but a balk is a balk at any level... most leagues are over 13ish before we use any balk rule.

I understand but letting some go is the difference between a 5 inning game or a 2 inning game.

That's kind of where I'm coming from ^^^

In quite a few levels here, it's 1 warning per pitcher, and it tends to be fairly leniant. This would be one of those situations where if nothing is said, and you see it ...let the coach know as an fyi. Then if he does it again, ...openly warn him .... second offense is a balk w/ advancing runners....

[BigUmp56]

Gross balk.

Hands broke before the foot moved.

You would have been arguing the opposite until you were blue in the face had this been called on one of your precious Yankee pitchers. Get off the fan-boy band wagon and watch the play again without Yankee blinders on, Rich. Not even close to an elephant balk.

Tim.

[BigUmp56]

That is a clear balk... should be called IMO at all levels of play. Why would you let this go?

Because I believe it's a ticky-tac call to make. Had he broken his hands first and then stepped off, I would have called it. But I'm not going to get that particular if I see an amature pitcher break his hands while he's stepping off. Calling ticky-tac balks is a sure way to ruin a ball game.

Would you call a balk on a pitcher you believed was taking signs while off the rubber *provided* he didn't quick pitch? I'd hope that you wouldn't, and this is similar - IMHO.

Tim.

I hope nobody would, because that's not a balk - not even a "technical" one. It falls under the category of "don't do that."

I get your point. It was an apples to oranges comparison - my bad, I was looking for a quick parallel and that's the first thing that popped into this thick head of mine. But you'd be surprised how many times I've seen a balk called for it, or heard a coach complain that it should be called. I've even had coaches complain when an in contact pitcher looked at a coach to get a sign, because as we all know, only a catcher can give F1 a sign.

Tim.

[sdix00]

I have been told to let these go in the interest of game management. Not that I like it, tho.

I have been thinking though, we should be able to let this one go, UNLESS F1 makes an attempt on a runner.

In theory, once the F1 separates, the runner should be thinking "pitch" and possibly steal the next base. But if F1 stepped off simultaneously/subsequently to his separation, then I would interpret this as just a sloppy disengagement. IF, however, F1 separated for the purpose of getting the runner to bite on the pitch, and simultaneously stepped off in order to pick off the runner - balk all day.

So while I have no issue with this being called at the Pro level, for me, at my levels - this is nothing, UNLESS F1 makes an attempt on a deceived runner. This one goes in the same bucket with the "adolescent shiver" and "the shoulder yawn".

[grayhawk]

That is a clear balk... should be called IMO at all levels of play. Why would you let this go?

Because I believe it's a ticky-tac call to make. Had he broken his hands first and then stepped off, I would have called it. But I'm not going to get that particular if I see an amature pitcher break his hands while he's stepping off. Calling ticky-tac balks is a sure way to ruin a ball game.

Would you call a balk on a pitcher you believed was taking signs while off the rubber *provided* he didn't quick pitch? I'd hope that you wouldn't, and this is similar - IMHO.

Tim.

I hope nobody would, because that's not a balk - not even a "technical" one. It falls under the category of "don't do that."

I get your point. It was an apples to oranges comparison - my bad, I was looking for a quick parallel and that's the first thing that popped into this thick head of mine. But you'd be surprised how many times I've seen a balk called for it, or heard a coach complain that it should be called. I've even had coaches complain when an in contact pitcher looked at a coach to get a sign, because as we all know, only a catcher can give F1 a sign.

Tim.

I hear you, and figured that's what you were trying to say, so no worries. This happened in a game I was coaching that my son was playing in last weekend. 12U Pony game and the F1 for the opposing team kept taking his signs off the rubber. This prevented our runners from getting a lead and getting into a position to steal. PU was doing nothing about it so I asked him between innings if he could address it and he did. F1 then took his signs from the rubber and it was all good.

[grayhawk]

I have been told to let these go in the interest of game management. Not that I like it, tho.

I have been thinking though, we should be able to let this one go, UNLESS F1 makes an attempt on a runner.

In theory, once the F1 separates, the runner should be thinking "pitch" and possibly steal the next base. But if F1 stepped off simultaneously/subsequently to his separation, then I would interpret this as just a sloppy disengagement. IF, however, F1 separated for the purpose of getting the runner to bite on the pitch, and simultaneously stepped off in order to pick off the runner - balk all day.

So while I have no issue with this being called at the Pro level, for me, at my levels - this is nothing, UNLESS F1 makes an attempt on a deceived runner. This one goes in the same bucket with the "adolescent shiver" and "the shoulder yawn".

Interesting Dix. Who told you this? High School unit? USSSA? Someone else?

[Rich Ives]

Gross balk.

Hands broke before the foot moved.

You would have been arguing the opposite until you were blue in the face had this been called on one of your precious Yankee pitchers. Get off the fan-boy band wagon and watch the play again without Yankee blinders on, Rich. Not even close to an elephant balk.

Tim.

You're kidding - right? I hope so.

This is MLB Tim. They call the slightest flinch in MLB. This was huge.

Darling and Smoltz knew it right away.

Not a peep from the Tiger bench.

It waas huge in MLB terms Tim.

[BigUmp56]

Gross balk.

Hands broke before the foot moved.

You would have been arguing the opposite until you were blue in the face had this been called on one of your precious Yankee pitchers. Get off the fan-boy band wagon and watch the play again without Yankee blinders on, Rich. Not even close to an elephant balk.

Tim.

You're kidding - right? I hope so.

This is MLB Tim. They call the slightest flinch in MLB. This was huge.

Darling and Smoltz knew it right away.

Not a peep from the Tiger bench.

It waas huge in MLB terms Tim.

I'm just giving you a little healthy jab because I know how much you LOVE your Yankees, Rich. And for what it's worth, I completely agree with you that in MLB this was called correctly. I still don't think it was the elephant balk you think it was, but that's just a matter of opinion.

For discussion purposes on this forum, I think it's a great clip to use to see what other amature officials think about calling this in one of their games. I think I've made it clear what I think. 12U to 18U, I'm not going to call this one from behind the plate.

Tim.

[jim knight]

Okay so now my question would be "what other rules to you bend or ignore?" / I hear this type of logic from time to time and I just don't buy it... "it's early in the year"... you should not call that_________ / really? or these kids are so young you gotta let that go.... really? Just my opinion... but if the rules were enforced at an early age... when the players are older they would get it and so would the coaches. It does not take long for the players and coaches to see what kind of an umpire you are and they will play the game right .... yup all ages 14 and up. Good example is the "Foot in the box Rule" most guys ignore but I don't so you got it when I have the dish the players abide with the rule...

[BigUmp56]

Okay so now my question would be "what other rules to you bend or ignore?" / I hear this type of logic from time to time and I just don't buy it... "

As soon as you start a discussion this way you're not asking a question, you're making an accusation, and I resent the implication.

I have worked with a few umpires who want to call every tick-tac balk they can. They call them not because they effect the game, they call them to show coaches how "smart" they are because they've read 8.05.

Call your games as you see fit, and I'll continue to call mine the way myself and the other officials I work with at the amature level call theirs.

And to answer your accusation, I don't call a "ball" every time a pitcher goes to his mouth in the circle, and as long as they wipe, I say nothing. I don't call a balk when a pitcher takes more than 20 seconds to deliver the ball, and I don't worry about the back lines of the box either. I usually get them rubbed out myself by the end of the first inning.

Tim.

[jim knight]

Tim - I was not directing my post to you I just thought it would be interesting to see what other rules others ignore. I really dont care just thought it might make for some interesting comments. I think we acually see eye to eye on more than you might know.