Weak Partner's?

[mazzamouth]

You guys ever work with a guy, and you wonder how they made it this far? I had a guy who I swear must of had cement shoe's cause he never ( or only a few feet) moved from behind the plate, and when he was the BU, didn't move from there.

ex #1 I was PU and had R1 well there was a fair/foul so i came up the 1st baseline as far as my belt would allow me to I get set make the fair call..and right away look over and see R1 going toward 3rd, but my partner was still in "B" watching the batted ball and batter? WTF?

ex 2.. twice in the game when I was BU he had a check call it a ball.. DC wants him to ask me to see what I have, but he tells him no he will not ask for help.. this happen twice..

all day I'm moving running all over the field, going out on balls and running back to cover HP.. this guy doesn't move, and who do you think they gave crap too? ( well till i stopped it)...

And this guy has worked in the NAIA world series, and work Non Conference games at KU and K-State...

Holy cow. I gave him a really bad eval. Sorry just venting..LOL

[Paperipper17]

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt...nothing worse than a rock for a partner. I can't believe he worked college games. Did you get the opportunity after the game to tell him what for?

Had a few of those, but my favorite was the guy that flipped two of my calls in one game. I'm on the bases in a HS game, in A. Obviously, no one on, so I have BR all the way to third, right? Ball bombed down the right field line, no chance at a play as the outfield was swung around to left. I fall into my rotation mechanics, see him hit first, then second, and line myself up in perfect position for the play at third. Banger, swipe tag, but I see the runner's hand get in under it, so I safe him. a half second later, I hear, "No, he's out!" from the coach's box. I look up, and see my partner, mask in hand, giving the most animated out call I've ever seen. He had no angle on the play, as he was almost behind F5, not to mention it wasn't his call. He hustles over to me, yelling that he saw the tag on the elbow. I say yes, you're right, but the hand hit the bag first. We go back and forth for about 15 seconds, then he comes out with "I'm the crew chief, he's out!":wow:

"Well, I was in position, it was my call, he's safe!"

Partner walks over to the runner, says "You're out," and walks back to the plate. Runner leaves the bag, OC goes nuts, but that's a story for another day (my partner ended up ejecting him, the game was protested.)

Later in the game, play at first, I'm in B. F3 has to jump (barely) for the throw, but he comes down just before the runner hits the bag. Out. From a quarter of the way up the line, "No, he's safe! Off the bag!"

Another conversation, another rank pull, another loss for me. I try to talk to him after the game, he won't say a thing to me, just leaves. I call my assignor, who tells me the AD from both schools called during the game, and he's had several guys refuse to work with the guy again. I added my name to that list.

Now, the guy had a great strike zone, communicated well (except for his foray up the third base line), and seemed to know what he was doing...but his teamwork skills were so badly lacking that I have no idea how he advanced in that organization. And as far as I know, he's still doing HS games around here. :rock

Edited March 15, 2010 by Paperipper17
Bad spelling

[BrianC14]

You guys ever work with a guy, and you wonder how they made it this far? I had a guy who I swear must of had cement shoe's cause he never ( or only a few feet) moved from behind the plate, and when he was the BU, didn't move from there.

ex #1 I was PU and had R1 well there was a fair/foul so i came up the 1st baseline as far as my belt would allow me to I get set make the fair call..and right away look over and see R1 going toward 3rd, but my partner was still in "B" watching the batted ball and batter? WTF?

ex 2.. twice in the game when I was BU he had a check call it a ball.. DC wants him to ask me to see what I have, but he tells him no he will not ask for help.. this happen twice..

all day I'm moving running all over the field, going out on balls and running back to cover HP.. this guy doesn't move, and who do you think they gave crap too? ( well till i stopped it)...

And this guy has worked in the NAIA world series, and work Non Conference games at KU and K-State...

Holy cow. I gave him a really bad eval. Sorry just venting..LOL

Hey, do yourself and your association some good. Work with him again and provide another evaluation.

And to think I almost moved to KC... :rock

[BrianC14]

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt...nothing worse than a rock for a partner. I can't believe he worked college games. Did you get the opportunity after the game to tell him what for?

Had a few of those, but my favorite was the guy that flipped two of my calls in one game. I'm on the bases in a HS game, in A. Obviously, no one on, so I have BR all the way to third, right? Ball bombed down the right field line, no chance at a play as the outfield was swung around to left. I fall into my rotation mechanics, see him hit first, then second, and line myself up in perfect position for the play at third. Banger, swipe tag, but I see the runner's hand get in under it, so I safe him. a half second later, I hear, "No, he's out!" from the coach's box. I look up, and see my partner, mask in hand, giving the most animated out call I've ever seen. He had no angle on the play, as he was almost behind F5, not to mention it wasn't his call. He hustles over to me, yelling that he saw the tag on the elbow. I say yes, you're right, but the hand hit the bag first. We go back and forth for about 15 seconds, then he comes out with "I'm the crew chief, he's out!":wow:

"Well, I was in position, it was my call, he's safe!"

Partner walks over to the runner, says "You're out," and walks back to the plate. Runner leaves the bag, OC goes nuts, but that's a story for another day (my partner ended up ejecting him, the game was protested.)

Later in the game, play at first, I'm in B. F3 has to jump (barely) for the throw, but he comes down just before the runner hits the bag. Out. From a quarter of the way up the line, "No, he's safe! Off the bag!"

Another conversation, another rank pull, another loss for me. I try to talk to him after the game, he won't say a thing to me, just leaves. I call my assignor, who tells me the AD from both schools called during the game, and he's had several guys refuse to work with the guy again. I added my name to that list.

Now, the guy had a great strike zone, communicated well (except for his foray up the third base line), and seemed to know what he was doing...but his teamwork skills were so badly lacking that I have no idea how he advanced in that organization. And as far as I know, he's still doing HS games around here. :eyeroll

Holy macaroni. I guess the only thing left to do is 'cup check' him, with your plate shoes on. :o

[mazzamouth]

Been there, done that fellas.

Maz, with your guy, since you listed his credentials, I take it he has informed you of them - is it a stretch to say he has a bit of an ego? Guys like that can't be taught. There's not much you can do. If this happens to anyone, all that can be done really is asking not to be paired up with him, if possible.

Paperipper, I'd've been tempted to ask the guy after every call I made after the first one:

"OK with you if I call him out / safe / etc, chief?" Emphasis on the chief part. What a tool.

Ump24, yes he has a bit of an Ego.. that's why after the game I didn't even ask him anything, I wanted no feedback from him what so ever...

Brian I'm not sure if I have him again, but I left a pretty good feedback..I think I gave a lot of details.

[mazzamouth]

paper.. I'm glad I didn't have that guy, at least my guy didn't have a chance to over turn me...LOL

we did get together for a possible swipe tag, but our talk was all of about 15 sec..LOL

[kcfan102]

I've been there Mazza, and I'll be there again this year too

There are a couple of guys I end up working with who don't have a clue. Like you, I end up running my tail off while they sit there with their arms folded, looking like their asleep standing up behind sunglasses... and texting between innings. I know it's little league but give me a break.

It doesn't happen often, but once is one too many. It really makes me appreciate those who work just as hard.

(Although, hustling and giving a is part of our job)

[JaxRolo]

A lot of it has to do with associations not having enough umpires.

Our association held training for new umpires just before the season started and some of the new guys had a lot to be desired! (We were all new at one point but goodness gracious!)

Some showed good promise but some didn't even know baseball fundamentals.

[JaxRolo]

Part of the problem is the economy. Lots of people unemployed so they say to themselves "I know baseball I will be an Umpire"

Just trying to make some dough. I don't really blame them.

I think the keyword is 'Training"

[Umpire in Chief]

In my mind there are 2 types of weak partners.

1. The lazy SOB who knows better. But through their "years of experience" they know better than any body else. Now because they are so good they don't have to hustle, they don't have to try harder, they don't have to use proper mechanics. They also tend to be the narcissist who won't hesitate to tell you what you've done wrong. Even worse as someone else said they will blatantly throw you under the bus, because after all you know nothing compared to them. If thy think they're right then you are nothing more than another obstacle too them, not their partner.

2. The inexperienced guy. This guy tries his hardest wants to do well, but just hasn't learned how to do well, yet. I've found that for many of these guys the game hasn't slowed down enough for them so that they can see the big picture. They are often too focused on applying what they have learned to the game, but haven't reached the point of managing the game and knowing how to take what he's learned and apply it to out of the ordinary situations.

The key is not to turn umpire #2 into the likes of type #1. Work with them give them honest feedback, but don't overwhelm them pick 1 or 2 of the most important things for them to work on which are with in their realm of ability. Sure you could list everything they could have done better and give them some tough love feedback, but that may overwhelm him or even worse discourage him. When he gets in a sticky situation let him try to feel his own way out, but be there and don't let him feel alone.

I think many umpires like #1 are made partly from their own bad experiences being the junior umpire, and partly their own personalities. But once they get to that stage they're not going to make an effort to help others or improve themselves, they just need to be pushed out of the organization.

[Paperipper17]

In my mind there are 2 types of weak partners.

1. The lazy SOB who knows better. But through their "years of experience" they know better than any body else. Now because they are so good they don't have to hustle, they don't have to try harder, they don't have to use proper mechanics. They also tend to be the narcissist who won't hesitate to tell you what you've done wrong. Even worse as someone else said they will blatantly throw you under the bus, because after all you know nothing compared to them. If thy think they're right then you are nothing more than another obstacle too them, not their partner.

2. The inexperienced guy. This guy tries his hardest wants to do well, but just hasn't learned how to do well, yet. I've found that for many of these guys the game hasn't slowed down enough for them so that they can see the big picture. They are often too focused on applying what they have learned to the game, but haven't reached the point of managing the game and knowing how to take what he's learned and apply it to out of the ordinary situations.

The key is not to turn umpire #2 into the likes of type #1. Work with them give them honest feedback, but don't overwhelm them pick 1 or 2 of the most important things for them to work on which are with in their realm of ability. Sure you could list everything they could have done better and give them some tough love feedback, but that may overwhelm him or even worse discourage him. When he gets in a sticky situation let him try to feel his own way out, but be there and don't let him feel alone.

I think many umpires like #1 are made partly from their own bad experiences being the junior umpire, and partly their own personalities. But once they get to that stage they're not going to make an effort to help others or improve themselves, they just need to be pushed out of the organization.

very well said, Warren. That's hitting the nail right on the head.

[kcfan102]

I don't mind #2 (insert funny joke here)

This job can get complicated and those who aren't exposed to the proper training can suffer, and that puts everybody in a bind.

Whenever I encounter the inexperienced guys I try to help as much as possible.

It's the guys who are inexperienced and DON'T TELL ANYBODY that grind my gears.

Last year I had 15/16 yo tournament I was doing. My partner was very green. I could tell. I asked him how long he'd been doing this and he said "Oh, long time. I did it back in California, you know". Usually guys who have been doing this a long time don't have WalMart slacks and brand new gear that still has the factory fresh shine on the finish.

Nobody on, roller down the first base line. Pitcher comes over to get it. For some reason F1 falls down. BR trys to avoid the tag, does one of those small leaps while veering to his right. While he is slightly in the air, F1 applies the tag. It was nothing bad, just baseball. The BR lands on his side. I'm up the line trying to see the tag. It's there, I call it. Simple as that, lets move on right?

Wrong,

California veteran over there is still in his original A slot looking up at the sky. The fist base coach accuses the pitcher of trying to trip the runner. Home team (first base side) takes exception to the accusation and comes onto the field to talk with the first base coach to ask why he is accusing F1. Since I'm already up the line, I get in between them. Both coaches are fuming at each other. No F*bombs, nothing like that. But i had to escort the DC (who I know very well) back to the dug out. I start jogging back behind the plate and I take a glace over to my partner to confirm two outs. Numnuts is looking for B2's flying overhead. He wasn't on his way, he didn't even move.

Two other crews were watching that game and asked me about it. I said that he was a veteran yadda yadda. Then I hear: "Who him? Nah, he is a replacement for another guy, this is first year."

Maybe a 45 year old ADULT had a problem with having a 19 year old being the veteran.

Note to assignor... never again.

[BrianC14]

I don't mind #2 (insert funny joke here)

This job can get complicated and those who aren't exposed to the proper training can suffer, and that puts everybody in a bind.

Whenever I encounter the inexperienced guys I try to help as much as possible.

It's the guys who are inexperienced and DON'T TELL ANYBODY that grind my gears.

Last year I had 15/16 yo tournament I was doing. My partner was very green. I could tell. I asked him how long he'd been doing this and he said "Oh, long time. I did it back in California, you know". Usually guys who have been doing this a long time don't have WalMart slacks and brand new gear that still has the factory fresh shine on the finish.

Nobody on, roller down the first base line. Pitcher comes over to get it. For some reason F1 falls down. BR trys to avoid the tag, does one of those small leaps while veering to his right. While he is slightly in the air, F1 applies the tag. It was nothing bad, just baseball. The BR lands on his side. I'm up the line trying to see the tag. It's there, I call it. Simple as that, lets move on right?

Wrong,

California veteran over there is still in his original A slot looking up at the sky. The fist base coach accuses the pitcher of trying to trip the runner. Home team (first base side) takes exception to the accusation and comes onto the field to talk with the first base coach to ask why he is accusing F1. Since I'm already up the line, I get in between them. Both coaches are fuming at each other. No F*bombs, nothing like that. But i had to escort the DC (who I know very well) back to the dug out. I start jogging back behind the plate and I take a glace over to my partner to confirm two outs. Numnuts is looking for B2's flying overhead. He wasn't on his way, he didn't even move.

Two other crews were watching that game and asked me about it. I said that he was a veteran yadda yadda. Then I hear: "Who him? Nah, he is a replacement for another guy, this is first year."

Maybe a 45 year old ADULT had a problem with having a 19 year old being the veteran.Note to assignor... never again.

There's a excellent lesson for you older guys who are just getting into this, or guys who have a few years' service but still have some green around the gills. (And you know who you are).

Don't have such an ego about your chronological age when it comes to umpiring baseball. There are plenty of 20-somethings that have been to pro school, may have even worked a few years in the minors, only to be released.

It's all about pre-judging someone based solely on their young age. You'd be wise to figure out their experience prior to assuming your birth date gives you the seniority of experience. And of course, we all know what Jim Evans has said about experience... "is it really 20 years' experience, or 1 year experience 20 times?" :blah

[Dragon29]

There's a excellent lesson for you older guys who are just getting into this, or guys who have a few years' service but still have some green around the gills. (And you know who you are).

Don't have such an ego about your chronological age when it comes to umpiring baseball. There are plenty of 20-somethings that have been to pro school, may have even worked a few years in the minors, only to be released.

It's all about pre-judging someone based solely on their young age. You'd be wise to figure out their experience prior to assuming your birth date gives you the seniority of experience. And of course, we all know what Jim Evans has said about experience... "is it really 20 years' experience, or 1 year experience 20 times?"

I agree completely with this. I started umpiring LL in my late 30's and initially worked with guys who, while they had quite a bit of experience were around my age or older. I learned a lot from these guys.

Since then, I've joined another association; some of the best umpires in that association are 15-20 years younger than I am; several of them are doing MiLB at varying levels, but they come back whenever they can to help out at our clinics and do evaluations for us. Their input has been invaluable to me and others in our association.

Their age is actually a plus as far as I'm concerned because they're on a career-path to move up in the umpiring world, so they have the drive, energy and motivation to work to get better and better each and every game, and they bring that to our association. They are among my favorite instructors.

[dawg-man]

I agree as well. Our association has two young guys who are now in MiLB and they come back and help us with clinics, evals and work games with us until time to go. I am 51 and have umpired now for ten years. I absolutely love to listen to them, work with them and learn from them. I do not think age makes you a good umpire. I think a desire to get better all the time will make you a good umpire. Get in the books, listen and learn and work as often as you can. I hope that first game with your partner will be a good one and he will enjoy it and continue. As a mentor in our association I have had a few of these myself. Good luck and let us know how it all went down.

[Jeff C.]

There's a excellent lesson for you older guys who are just getting into this, or guys who have a few years' service but still have some green around the gills. (And you know who you are).

Don't have such an ego about your chronological age when it comes to umpiring baseball. There are plenty of 20-somethings that have been to pro school, may have even worked a few years in the minors, only to be released.

It's all about pre-judging someone based solely on their young age. You'd be wise to figure out their experience prior to assuming your birth date gives you the seniority of experience. And of course, we all know what Jim Evans has said about experience... "is it really 20 years' experience, or 1 year experience 20 times?"

Brian is speaking the truth. I can vouch for that because I'm a 48 yr old second year guy. I'm still green but I certainly hope I'm improving. I may get caught out of position, but by gosh I'll hustle my tail off on the field. To me, that is the LEAST you can do. I worked with a young man last year, still in college, but with years of experience. Helped me out tremendously. One shouldn't judge experience based on age alone.

[mstaylor]

I am 51, have 35 yrs experience, am an instructor and rules interpreter but I still go to clinics where most if not all the instructors are young enough to be my son but I still learn from them because they are closer to having been in school and work a way higher level of ball than I do.

I think I am pretty good at what I do but I have no problem learning from anybody that can teach me. When I quit learning,I will quit working.

[shagpal]

I just wanna stick up for some older (not weak) veterans of umpiring.

yesterday, I saw an older veteran call a hella game from the dish. he has knee issues, I heard from beating some kinda cancer. he also has an ankle issue, since his weakened knees cause him to turn his one of his ankles.

the fella moved somewhat gingerly, but was still moving briskly enuff w/ a slight limp, got into positions when necessary, and didn't see him once cheat his stance. he did all this with a big smile on his face before, between innings and after the game.

if I can do what he's doing when I'm his age, I will feel very fortunate. sometimes, there are excuses, and I think this one is a good one as any.

[Aging_Arbiter]

I don't think it is so much a sense of entitlement, it's a lack of respect. Respect for the game and respect for ones self is what keeps me dragging my tail out there game after game. If you are older, and have repsect for the game, you respect what those youger fellas are doing or trying to do. If you are part of the next generation and have been brought up properly (yes there are some out there guys n gals), you have a respect for the game, respect for your elders and respect for what they love. BASEBALL!

[mstaylor]

I think it goes without saying that the grizzled vets, although they may have lost a step or two, who still leave it all on the field day in and day out are the ones not only respected, but revered by the young generation of up and coming arbiters.

The concentration of this thread is on the guys who have that sense of entitlement; as if being older really does make a difference - their "years" of experience allow them to run "their" game "their" way, and anyone born after 1985 is simply inferior because they haven't seen as much as "they" have.

The older guys you reference generally sucked when they were younger, refused to learn or were never trained at all and as a result won't improve now and insist on,"This is how we have always done it!" Those guys are fortunately going the way of the Dodo bird but they still exist. As PIAA and I have said many times we didn't have the training opportunities there are today or internet boards like this one that help teach guys coming up. Some areas still don't train or use the resources available today and so the Dodo bird is still hanging on. :wow: