Baserunner Assistance

[Mike Prince]

The athletic organization I am umpiring in this fall has a local rule that base coaches cannot assist runners - don't have the rule book in front of me but it states dead ball and runner is out, coach is warned that next infraction gets him in the dugout for remainder of game.

I was PU for first round game of 11-12 playoffs last night, runner on first in the top of the first, one out. Batter hits a bloop single to center, runner on first goes to second. Batter makes the turn at first and comes back to get the obligatory high five from the base coach. Throw in goes astray and then into right field as defense tries to make a play on lead runner - and the "high ten" between coach and player turns into a grab/turn/push of runner with a shouted "go". BU picked up 2nd base runner, I saw what happened at first. Lead runner scores, batter ends up on third - no play made on either runner as the defense was just trying to end the play. I called trailing runner out on coach interference per the rule once the play ended. Of course both base coaches went crazy claiming I can't call interference on a "high five" which it clearly was not. The play did not directly impact the game outcome, the offending team won with a huge last inning to win by 5.

So the question - since no play was made on either runner, should I have made the call in this circumstance? No question in my mind that the rule was violated, but I took heat from coaches and fans for "over-umpiring" or being too picky. Not second guessing my call but rather wanting to learn if I used the proper judgment in making it. The rest of the game went smoothly with no more bickering on the call other than the original denial/protest.

[BrianC14]

The athletic organization I am umpiring in this fall has a local rule that base coaches cannot assist runners - don't have the rule book in front of me but it states dead ball and runner is out, coach is warned that next infraction gets him in the dugout for remainder of game.

I was PU for first round game of 11-12 playoffs last night, runner on first in the top of the first, one out. Batter hits a bloop single to center, runner on first goes to second. Batter makes the turn at first and comes back to get the obligatory high five from the base coach. Throw in goes astray and then into right field as defense tries to make a play on lead runner - and the "high ten" between coach and player turns into a grab/turn/push of runner with a shouted "go". BU picked up 2nd base runner, I saw what happened at first. Lead runner scores, batter ends up on third - no play made on either runner as the defense was just trying to end the play. I called trailing runner out on coach interference per the rule once the play ended. Of course both base coaches went crazy claiming I can't call interference on a "high five" which it clearly was not. The play did not directly impact the game outcome, the offending team won with a huge last inning to win by 5.

So the question - since no play was made on either runner, should I have made the call in this circumstance? No question in my mind that the rule was violated, but I took heat from coaches and fans for "over-umpiring" or being too picky. Not second guessing my call but rather wanting to learn if I used the proper judgment in making it. The rest of the game went smoothly with no more bickering on the call other than the original denial/protest.

Yeah - "over-umpiring". LOL Why didn't they just yell, "Hey, let them play!" or better yet, "It's for the kids!" (get the joke?) What other rules would they like you to ignore?

The fact is, you have an argument that says, "well, no, a play wasn't made on the B/R - but PERHAPS it's because he got an assist from his coach at 1st base that gave him enough of an edge." (I don't recommend using this during the ensuing argument, I'm just trying to make a point here).

If, in your judgment, the coach at first turned the runner around and helped him by physically assisting him, then you bang him out, per the rules. Perhaps next time they'll learn to skip the high five BS until action is relaxed and no further play is possible.

If you felt the rule was violated, then you did your job in calling it. As I said earlier, 'what other rules do they want you to ignore'?

"over-umpiring". Sheeesh.....

[mstaylor]

I agree with Brian. If you believe it was more than just a high five, then you were completely correct. Call the out immediately but leave the ball live if there are multible runners so the defense has the opportunity to make more outs.

[DirtyDawg]

Hell, I've seen a batter be called out on a balk because the batter at the plate gave him a "high-5" before he crossed the plate. We lost by one run that game and it was our home umpires.

[Umpire in Chief]

I had a quarter-final game in an AAU-13 national championship game. It was Puerto Rico vs North Carolina. NC hit a grand slam and the NC players lined up on the third base line to give low-5's to the batter as he came by.

The PR coach came storming out of the dugout saying that the batter should be out. I told him I had nothing as they were offering no assistance. He insisted. Given the scope of the game I conferred with my partner. He also had nothing. I informed the coach and he went haywire for a second or two and briefly went back to the dugout. He and an assistant coach (who I nearly (should have) tossed for yelling at me in Spanish from the dugout) came back out and they wanted to protest the call.

For this tournament protests were immediate and we delayed our game for nearly half an hour. As all the coaches and the TD met. I continued to make friends with the PR team when I told the pitcher he couldn't throw warm up pitches to the catcher while squatting, but he could still toss the ball around. The tournament director upheld my call.

I then continued to make friends from PR as I didn't allow their pitcher to make warm up pitches when we resumed the game.

FWIW PR won by 10RR so the grand slam didn't matter much at all.

[carolinablue]

What part of North Carolina were they from ?

[Umpire in Chief]

I have no idea the game was played in Newport News VA/

[Don]

Why this took 30 minutes, I have no idea. Ball was dead when it left the park. No one needed assistance.

[SNIPERBBB]

Local rule? This is a real rule in most rulebooks. Then again, a lot of local leagues insist on repeating the same rule over and over again from the real book in their exceptions list.

[Dragon29]

Hell, I've seen a batter be called out on a balk because the batter at the plate gave him a "high-5" before he crossed the plate. We lost by one run that game and it was our home umpires.

dawg,

I know I'm coming late to the party here, but this is just plain stupid. The batter wasn't . . .

a) a coach

offering assistance

If the OM was on his toes, he would have (properly) appealed that decision to the calling umpire and that umpire would (hopefully) have figured out he kicked the call and reverse himself.

[kylejt]

The athletic organization I am umpiring in this fall has a local rule that base coaches cannot assist runners - don't have the rule book in front of me but it states dead ball and runner is out, coach is warned that next infraction gets him in the dugout for remainder of game. The rest of the game went smoothly with no more bickering on the call other than the original denial/protest.

First, understand the local rule flies against what most rule sets call for, that is the runner is out, but the ball remains live.

The relegation to the dugout is also a local thing.

Also, did the manager actually protest? Or was that just a reference to him disagreeing with the call? Plus, if he "went crazy" you'll may need to brush up on your game management skills. How did you make the call? In a casual manner, with a point and an easy "That's interference". or something more theatrical? Underselling a call is just as important as selling a call, at times. A "gee whiz, everyone saw that" type of call, like a foul ball 40' feet off the line, is the best way to go.

[Lhaber9]

when a base coach assists a runner, do you declare the runner out immediately or at he end of the play as stated in the OP? doesn't the rulebook say the penalty for interference it that the runner is out and the ball is dead? does this mean that when a base coach assists a runner the umpire should call the play dead and declare the runner out? this would mean no other runners could advance on the play.

also, what if the runner when rounding third trips over the third base coach. this is obviously not assisting the runner so nothing would happen right?

[UmpJM]

Lhaber,

When a base coach illegally assists a runner, you call the runner out at the time it happens. (I point at the infraction and say, "Coach Interference! The runner is out", following with a "hammer".) However, the ball remains in play, despite the rule book language that suggests otherwise.

Under OBR rules, unless the coach's interference is the 3rd out of the half inning, whatever happens subsequently stands.

Under FED rules, any subsequent outs obtained by the defense stand, but any subsequent advances by remaining viable runners are nullified and they are returned to their TOI base.

Also, if the runner "trips" over (or otherwise has "incidental contact" with the base coach), there is no call to be made (In some circumstances you might indicate "That's Nothing!") - play the bounce.

JM

Edited December 16, 2009 by UmpJM

[mstaylor]

What UMPJM said. :shrug:

[Mike Prince]

First, understand the local rule flies against what most rule sets call for, that is the runner is out, but the ball remains live.

The relegation to the dugout is also a local thing.

Also, did the manager actually protest? Or was that just a reference to him disagreeing with the call? Plus, if he "went crazy" you'll may need to brush up on your game management skills. How did you make the call? In a casual manner, with a point and an easy "That's interference". or something more theatrical? Underselling a call is just as important as selling a call, at times. A "gee whiz, everyone saw that" type of call, like a foul ball 40' feet off the line, is the best way to go.

when a base coach assists a runner, do you declare the runner out immediately or at he end of the play as stated in the OP? doesn't the rulebook say the penalty for interference it that the runner is out and the ball is dead? does this mean that when a base coach assists a runner the umpire should call the play dead and declare the runner out? this would mean no other runners could advance on the play.

also, what if the runner when rounding third trips over the third base coach. this is obviously not assisting the runner so nothing would happen right?

Hmm, forgot about this post as I have not been on the forum in the off-season (shame on me). In any case, I see only one thing that I did wrong as a rookie umpire in this situation. Here is our local rule regarding this

f. Base Coach Interference

If in the umpire's judgment a base coach assists a base runner by touching him/her (this includes catching, pushing, helping up or holding a runner), the runner is out and the ball is dead. (BR 7.09i) If the base coach leaves his coaching box area in any manner (runner along with the runner) that could be considered to be an attempt to draw a throw, the umpire may call interference, call runner out, and declare a dead ball. (BR 7.09j)

So what did I do wrong? I did not call the ball dead, I let the play finish and the runner from first procced to third before making the call and the play ended on its own.

As far as game management/style, I walked out in front of the plate once the play was over and announced the runner who was on third was out on Coach interference. No theatrics/showmanship from me, just a statement that the runner from first was out. "Going crazy" may have been an overstatement, the third base coach (whose oldest son I have coached) was actually the most agitated and I calmed him down quickly to listen to the first base coach (the Manager) who had properly called time to discuss the call.

Edited February 8, 2010 by bikerider

[kylejt]

So what did I do wrong? I did not call the ball dead, I let the play finish and the runner from first procced to third before making the call and the play ended on its own.

That seems like the only thing you did wrong, per the local rule.

That's an odd local rule, though. The ball is usually live on coaches interference. You mearly call the runner out, and let things play out.

I'm glad you clarified the part about the coaches going crazy. There's never a case when that's okay at a kids game.

[stl_ump]

That seems like the only thing you did wrong, per the local rule.

That's an odd local rule, though. The ball is usually live on coaches interference. You mearly call the runner out, and let things play out.

I'm glad you clarified the part about the coaches going crazy. There's never a case when that's okay at a kids game.

The ball is NOT live on coaches interference...

7.09(h) In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base.

PENALTY FOR INTERFERENCE: The runner is out and the ball is dead.

[th3]

in FED Rule 3-2 Art 2

No coach shall physically assist a runner during playing action. Penalty: The ball is dead at the end of playing action.

[Umpire in Chief]

I personally like DDB s it gives us a chance at another out.

[UmpJM]

Under OBR rules, despite the wording in the rule book, the ball remains in play on a "base coach assistance" call, though the runner is called out immediately.

All interpretations agree - J/R, JEA, and the BRD cites 2 different Official Interpretations (from PBUC & Mike Fitzpatrick).

The JEA does suggest that if a play is being made on the assisted runner at the time of the assistance, it would be proper to call the ball dead immediately. (Though none of the more "recent" interps mentions this.)

JM

[Kevin Finnerty]

What percentage of stuff does Jim Evans just make up?

[mstaylor]

I don't know that make up a good term for what is in Jim's manual. He teaches from his knowledge and experience base. He is well known in MLB as the comsumate rules expert although some of his rulings are becoming outdated. There are a few that is direct conflict that he feels baseball has wrong but newer and more current interps. I don't know that this one falls in that area but it may. Of all the manuals, if there is nothing in the MLBUM then I tend to go with it.

[Kevin Finnerty]

The premier rules expert, from a historical perspective, is David Nemec, a prolific author that I knew of from my years in the Bay Area chapter of the Society for American Baseball Research. In fact, I would put him at or near the top of living baseball historians and experts.

Evans may be one of the leading expert rules practitioners, along with the likes of Jaksa & Roder, but his imperious ways make some of what he says and does very questionable. I think most of the information in his manual is fantastic (drastically overpriced, but excellent info throughout). But some of the umpires who went through his school are some of the more difficult umpires to work with. It seems that many of Evans's students acquire his imperiousness.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Kevin Finnerty

[mstaylor]

I would certainly agree with some of his graduates being difficult. However some are some of the best instructors I've seen.