Can you gents settle a debate

[zebra2955]

Having a debate witha fellow umpire. I know this has probably been beaten to death but here goes

Play 1 Runner on third, pitcher throws to third basemen, who is 15-20 feet from base

I say legal

he says balk

Play 2 runner on 2nd pitcher throws to SS who is also 15-20 feet from 2nd

Again I say legal

he says balk

[Rich Ives]

MLBUM 7.5 (b ) PBUC 8.5(l)

There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

Anyone who thinks this doesn't apply at third base also is in need of some sense.

[zebra2955]

Can you give a Fed rule I say it is 6-4-b I also say it is the same in all codes.

[yawetag]

zebra, ask your umpiring friend where the rule book says it's illegal.

[Rich Ives]

Can you give a Fed rule I say it is 6-4-b I also say it is the same in all codes.

6-2-4-b says it's OK to feint to 2B or 3B. IOW, you don't have to throw the ball there. All you have to do is step there. So if the pitcher steps there is's legal.

[zebra2955]

zebra, ask your umpiring friend where the rule book says it's illegal.

I have, waiting for an answer

[noumpere]

Can you give a Fed rule I say it is 6-4-b I also say it is the same in all codes.

The 2011 HS rules test question number 69 is a similar play and is ruled legal.

[NFUA_44]

zebra, ask your umpiring friend where the rule book says it's illegal.

I have, waiting for an answer

You'll be waiting for a long time since he won't find it. That said, you may want to point out to him that the only place a feint is not allowed (balk) is for an engaged pitcher that makes a move to 1st base.

[sdix00]

Zebra -

Unfortunately, your friend is not alone. I wonder if he may even be in the majority if you took a poll of all "Umpires" (as in - "Hey Blue! I am also an umpire and that ball hit out of bounds! It should be full count!")

It's a good thing we don't vote on legal plays. The correct ruling would often lose.

[th3]

so if he (when engaged) threw to the 1B man who was 10-15 off the bag that would be a balk? but not to the otyher bases?

[Rich Ives]

so if he (when engaged) threw to the 1B man who was 10-15 off the bag that would be a balk? but not to the otyher bases?

Yes.

Because once you start you MUST throw to 1B (not the first baseman, first base) but do not have to throw it at all to other bases.

[noumpere]

so if he (when engaged) threw to the 1B man who was 10-15 off the bag that would be a balk? but not to the otyher bases?

That depends on exactly where he was in relation to the base not just the distance and what he does after and the rules code being used but you are correct that the rules are much more restrictive toward first than they are toward the other bases.

[Rich Ives]

so if he (when engaged) threw to the 1B man who was 10-15 off the bag that would be a balk? but not to the otyher bases?

That depends on exactly where he was in relation to the base not just the distance and what he does after and the rules code being used but you are correct that the rules are much more restrictive toward first than they are toward the other bases.

He has to be close enough to have a legitimate play on the runner. 10-15 feet dosn't hack it in my book.

[noumpere]

so if he (when engaged) threw to the 1B man who was 10-15 off the bag that would be a balk? but not to the otyher bases?

That depends on exactly where he was in relation to the base not just the distance and what he does after and the rules code being used but you are correct that the rules are much more restrictive toward first than they are toward the other bases.

He has to be close enough to have a legitimate play on the runner. 10-15 feet dosn't hack it in my book.

What if that ten to 15 feet from the bag is directly behind the runner. I just dont want the original poster to think that distance from the base is the only thing which matters.

[Rich Ives]

What if that ten to 15 feet from the bag is directly behind the runner. I just dont want the original poster to think that distance from the base is the only thing which matters.

Well, then someone is stupidly positioned.

The throw has to be generally toward 1B an there must be the ability by F3 to play on the runner.

[Pops]

Can you give a Fed rule I say it is 6-4-b I also say it is the same in all codes.

6-2-4-b says it's OK to feint to 2B or 3B. IOW, you don't have to throw the ball there. All you have to do is step there. So if the pitcher steps there is's legal.

Let's separate 1)the step and 2)the throw/feint. So with a runner leading off second base, are you saying that the step toward the base has to be to second? What if F1 steps toward 3B (regardless of whether he throws or not)? Isn't that throw/feint to 3B driving back the runner to second?

[Rich Ives]

Can you give a Fed rule I say it is 6-4-b I also say it is the same in all codes.

6-2-4-b says it's OK to feint to 2B or 3B. IOW, you don't have to throw the ball there. All you have to do is step there. So if the pitcher steps there is's legal.

Let's separate 1)the step and 2)the throw/feint. So with a runner leading off second base, are you saying that the step toward the base has to be to second? What if F1 steps toward 3B (regardless of whether he throws or not)? Isn't that throw/feint to 3B driving back the runner to second?

It's not driving back the runner unless the runner is attempting, or feinting, an advance. If the runner is just standing there it's a balk.

FED Case Book - this is case (b ) - and I don't want any crap about it being 2B instad of 3B. The point is made.

6.2.4 SITUATION A: With R1 on third and R2 on first, F1 stretches and comes set. He then swings his entire nonpivot foot behind the back edge of the pitcher’s plate, steps toward second and (a) throws the ball to second in an attempt to retire R2, who is advancing there or (b ) feints throw to second to drive R2 back to first, who has neither attempted nor feinted an advance to second. RULING: In (a), this is legal. In (b ), it is a balk.

[noumpere]

What if that ten to 15 feet from the bag is directly behind the runner. I just dont want the original poster to think that distance from the base is the only thing which matters.

Well, then someone is stupidly positioned.

The throw has to be generally toward 1B an there must be the ability by F3 to play on the runner.

I think either requirement works and that both are not needed. You often see the first baseman playing in the hip pocket of the runner and I think thats in the ten to fifteen feet off the base range. I think were in agreement on this point but seem to be not understanding the posts of the other which I take as my fault. The case in the HS book at 6-2-4 Situation J is an example of what I am talking about.

[Rich Ives]

What if that ten to 15 feet from the bag is directly behind the runner. I just dont want the original poster to think that distance from the base is the only thing which matters.

Well, then someone is stupidly positioned.

The throw has to be generally toward 1B an there must be the ability by F3 to play on the runner.

I think either requirement works and that both are not needed. You often see the first baseman playing in the hip pocket of the runner and I think thats in the ten to fifteen feet off the base range. I think were in agreement on this point but seem to be not understanding the posts of the other which I take as my fault. The case in the HS book at 6-2-4 Situation J is an example of what I am talking about.

Average lead is about 9 feet. If you went to 15 feet you'd be a dead duck on a pick.

I hardly ever see F3 in the runner's hip packet. Perhaps the style of play is different in your area. But F3 almost has to be between the runner and the base to have any shot on a pickoff.

[mazzamouth]

Having a debate witha fellow umpire. I know this has probably been beaten to death but here goes

Play 1 Runner on third, pitcher throws to third basemen, who is 15-20 feet from base

I say legal

he says balk

Play 2 runner on 2nd pitcher throws to SS who is also 15-20 feet from 2nd

Again I say legal

he says balk

Depends on where the pitcher steps? If he steps toward the base, then legal

[wek29]

So, if he throws to 1st and no one is there it's not I balk? I may have blown this one earlier in the year. :crybaby2:

[Mr Umpire]

So, if he throws to 1st and no one is there it's not I balk? I may have blown this one earlier in the year.

As long as F1 throws to the base at 1B only, it is not a balk. If he throws to F3, then F3 better be at the base or have a legitimate chance to retire a runner. But, he doesn't have to actually retire a runner.

[wek29]

So, if he throws to 1st and no one is there it's not I balk? I may have blown this one earlier in the year.

As long as F1 throws to the base at 1B only, it is not a balk. If he throws to F3, then F3 better be at the base or have a legitimate chance to retire a runner. But, he doesn't have to actually retire a runner.

Ok, thanks! I booted one...F3 was playing about 10 feet off the base about even with the runner and the pitcher threw to the bag. In this league it was a warning for the balk, but it still irks me that I missed it.

[JaxRolo]

So, if he throws to 1st and no one is there it's not I balk? I may have blown this one earlier in the year.

As long as F1 throws to the base at 1B only, it is not a balk. If he throws to F3, then F3 better be at the base or have a legitimate chance to retire a runner. But, he doesn't have to actually retire a runner.

Ok, thanks! I booted one...F3 was playing about 10 feet off the base about even with the runner and the pitcher threw to the bag. In this league it was a warning for the balk, but it still irks me that I missed it.

At least it won't happen again! :rolleyes:

[jjskitours]

Also many umpires believe the step must be in a direct line to the base. I believe the same allowance

is given in throwing to 2nd and 3rd as is given to the LH pitcher throwing to 1st, namely 45 degrees (45 feet).

Therefore, when a pitcher steps and throws to the SS who is 25 or 30 feet away from 2nd with no play on

the runner at 2nd, do not call a balk.