Sanity Check...

[BrianC14]

Team A has a DH (Smith) in the 5 hole for the pitcher, Davis.

Late in the game, Smith enters the game... to pitch. Davis, the pitcher, stays in the game and moves to first base.

Clark, the first baseman who was batting in the 8 spot, leaves the game.

I know that the DH is now extinguished on this substitution so there's no issue there.

The coach asked where Smith (the former DH and now pitcher) should be in the batting order?

I told the coach that Smith must now bat in Clark's spot in the 8 hole, and Davis, the replaced pitcher and now the new F3, will bat in the 5 spot.

Was this correct? I'm brain cramping... ;)

[gv59]

I haven't look it up yet. but I would have left Smith in the 5th spot and put Davis in the 8th spot. I beleive since Smith was in the game and batting you wouldn't move his spot in the batting order

[mstaylor]

The DH and the person he is DHing for can't bat or be in the line-up at the same time. When the DH came in to pitch, the DH position is done and the pitcher has to leave.

[JamesC]

It is not completely true that he has to leave the game in FED because a starter can re-enter, therefore him moving to 1st base could be considered him re-entering the game for the 1st baseman as a sub, which was never in the batting order and would assume the 8th position on the batting order. However, were the first baseman to re-enter the game he MUST come in for the 1st baseman (which was originally the starting pitcher)

[AllanA]

In FED Rule 3 art 4 states that the DH and the defensive player are locked into the batting order. No multiple subs are allowed that will alter the batting rotation.

Rule 3 ART 4 b states that if a DH assumes a defensive position the DH is terminated.

Case Boo 3.14 Sit. C: If the DH enters the game on defense he must re-enter in the same position in the batting order.

OBR is different. Once a starter comes out he is done. Unless the league has re-entry rules.

I hope this helps.

[UmpJM]

Brian,

...

Late in the game, Smith enters the game... to pitch. Davis, the pitcher, stays in the game and moves to first base.

...

There's the problem, right there.

I concur with mstaylor & AllanA. Under FED rules, the DH and the player for whom he is batting cannot both be in the game on defense (or on offense, for that matter) at the same time.

Once something happens that terminates the DH role (i.e. DH enters on defense or player being batted for bats or pinch runs), you can no longer have the DH and the player for whom he is batting in the game at the same time. Because they are both "locked" into the same batting order spot.

JM

[Umpire in Chief]

ANyone want to take a stab at this in NCAA??? :banghead:

[mstaylor]

In Fed the two are locked in the same batting position. While true both have have re-entry rights it is only in that spot in the batting order. If the DH comes in to pitch then the DH is terminated and the current pitcher has to leave the game. If the now removed pitcher is a starter then he may reenter but only for the now terminated DH or his sub.

In NCAA it is little more interesting. Again they are tied to the same spot in the order and the DH is terminated if he goes to a defensive position. The wrinkle is NCAA allows you to move back and forth between a ten man line-up and a nine man line-up and they treat the F1 differently. The DH may go to the mound, putting the team down to nine players. Then they allow a replacement pitcher to enter and the DH to return to the DH position.

[BrianC14]

In Fed the two are locked in the same batting position. While true both have have re-entry rights it is only in that spot in the batting order. If the DH comes in to pitch then the DH is terminated and the current pitcher has to leave the game. If the now removed pitcher is a starter then he may reenter but only for the now terminated DH or his sub.

....

I negated the NCAA part of your reply so as not to confuse the issue; we're using FED rules in this situation.

There's no question about the DH "role" being extinguished for Team A for the remainder of the game.

I don't see any rule that prevents the current F1 from moving to another defensive position. I think that Davis, the now-former F1, should have taken over the spot vacated by Clark, in the 8 hole.

The reason being is that Davis did not have a spot in the batting order originally (when he was pitching) because Smith was DHing for him; said another way, Davis is not "locked" anywhere in terms of the batting order. (Unless, of course, let's say Smith becomes injured, and now Davis has to bat for himself, then he would be locked in).

However, when Smith comes in to pitch, he will remain in the 5 hole where he always was batting. Davis moves over to F3, and now he'll bat in that spot for the now-substituted Clark.

[mstaylor]

Brian:

Read 3-1-4a.

[MCLEOD36]

Not so fast my friend.... You dent a helmet and look at the lingering affects.... I think MS in his 2nd post said it best, in FED you have a DH cause the pitcher (first one) cant hit. So you say he is one half of a whole and the DH the other half. Now, if the pitcher, leaves and gives his half up to the DH so he can pitch, then he has nothing left and they can only swaps wholes back and forth ie same spots.

Sorry for the Pikachu/Yoda analogy guys, but he did take one to the cranium a couple weeks ago....

I just remember in FED, the DH/Pitcher are locked into spots and taking the DH from the lineup makes him toast, in the future unless he comes into pitch in a subsequent inning.

[BrianC14]

Brian:

Read 3-1-4a.

Mike: 3-1-4a outlines the situation when the DH is terminated -

The role of the DH is terminated for the remainder of the game when:

a. the defensive player or any previous defensive player for whom the DH batter, subsequently bats, pinch-hits or pinch-runs for the DH;

There's no question about that aspect of this - I

However: 3-1-4 also states that

no multiple substitutions may be made that will alter the batting rotation.

So when Smith (the DH) comes in to pitch, and Davis moves from F1 to F3, and Clark, (original F3) sits, then Smith will continue to bat for himself in the 5 hole, and Davis will bat in the 8 spot. The batting rotation hasn't been changed here, as I read this.

[BrianC14]

Not so fast my friend.... You dent a helmet and look at the lingering affects.... I think MS in his 2nd post said it best, in FED you have a DH cause the pitcher (first one) cant hit. So you say he is one half of a whole and the DH the other half. Now, if the pitcher, leaves and gives his half up to the DH so he can pitch, then he has nothing left and they can only swaps wholes back and forth ie same spots.

Sorry for the Pikachu/Yoda analogy guys, but he did take one to the cranium a couple weeks ago....

I just remember in FED, the DH/Pitcher are locked into spots and taking the DH from the lineup makes him toast, in the future unless he comes into pitch in a subsequent inning.

Yin/Yang are in harmony.

Umpire knows DH is toast.

Talk now about where to bat?

Baseball is a wonder of the world.

(How's that for a cuckoo haiku)?

By the way, I'm finally back to my bucket, as of yesterday. WSG got it right on the 2nd try.

I don't know here... given FED allows for reentry, it seems that maybe this is a loophole....?

Again: DH hitting for F1 starter.

DH later comes in to pitch. We all know DH is now done for the game.

F1 moves to F3 or whatever other defensive spot; then he should be hitting in that spot based on FED rules about reentry and not altering the batting order.

I obviously poked the proverbial pooch on this...telling him that Smith should hit in the 8 hole for the now-retired F3 (Clark). Crap on a cracker. :banghead:

[UmpJM]

Brian,

What do you make of the sentence in 3-1-4 that says:

...A designated hitter and the player for whom he is batting are locked into the batting order. ...

?

Or the statement from case play 3.1.4A that says:

...However, if the DH were to play defense, the F3 (i.e., the player for whom the DH was batting in the context of the case play) would have to leave the game."

?

If the DH enters the game on defense, the player for whom he is batting must leave the game.

If a player being batted for by the DH enters the game on offense, he may only do so in the batting order slot originally occupied by the DH, and the DH must leave the game.

JM

[MCLEOD36]

Listen..... Haiku this.....

there could be the loophole, what if....Nah.... that is covered too. Shall we go back to the catchers balk, not the one where he steps out.... It came to me last night after I had dreams of skiing in CO with Beyonce.... lol....

I like my analogy better.... You are right on the reentry, but he does loose rights if he was DHed for, thus is goes into the old adage of being locked in position... The loophole is for Non-DHed players, so I like play with 9, and let them play where they want and bat in ONE order...

[BrianC14]

Listen..... Haiku this.....

there could be the loophole, what if....Nah.... that is covered too. Shall we go back to the catchers balk, not the one where he steps out.... It came to me last night after I had dreams of skiing in CO with Beyonce.... lol....

I like my analogy better.... You are right on the reentry, but he does loose rights if he was DHed for, thus is goes into the old adage of being locked in position... The loophole is for Non-DHed players, so I like play with 9, and let them play where they want and bat in ONE order...

That's what ended up happening - playing with 9.

I should have left DH (now pitcher) hitting in the 5 spot, though...

[MCLEOD36]

Believe me.... Your post caused me to stop and think and make sure all loopholes were closed or spackled off, so nicer to go open kimono here then on the field, with those GREAT (I almost spit up) coaches that want to make Arods out of all their kids and pound on us.....

It is those who post/read/understand/post that are the good ones....

[Mr Umpire]

It is those who post/read/understand/post that are the good ones....

Count me out. I don't understand anything from Florida. They aren't part of the south. And, those in the cold mountains where they have 2 good days of summer all season and the rest is baseball on ice. :banghead:

[MCLEOD36]

LOL....

Mr. I am still waiting for a day so I can wear my newly fitted plate coat.....

[treedog24]

Team A has a DH (Smith) in the 5 hole for the pitcher, Davis.

Late in the game, Smith enters the game... to pitch. Davis, the pitcher, stays in the game and moves to first base.

Clark, the first baseman who was batting in the 8 spot, leaves the game.

I know that the DH is now extinguished on this substitution so there's no issue there.

The coach asked where Smith (the former DH and now pitcher) should be in the batting order?

I told the coach that Smith must now bat in Clark's spot in the 8 hole, and Davis, the replaced pitcher and now the new F3, will bat in the 5 spot.

Was this correct? I'm brain cramping...

In FED once your in the batting order at the start of the game you are locked into it, correct? And once the DH comes into play a defensive position the DH is gone for the rest of the game, correct? So the pitcher must bat when the DH slot is removed. So the Pitcher would have to assume the spot that is being taken over by the DH.

SO... Smith stays put in the lineup at the 5 spot and becomes F1, Davis enters the line-up in the 8th spot to replace Clark. In Fed, Clark can reenter the game as the F3 and bat in the 8th spot. Davis would be Clark's sub so once Clark re-enters Davis is done for the day.

In OBR if DH comes in to play defensively, the F1 assumes the batting spot of the player being taken out. I know that this happen in a Tigers/Angels game a number of years back and also happened this year to the Rays when Maddon screw-up the lineup card.

[UmpJM]

...

SO... Smith stays put in the lineup at the 5 spot and becomes F1, Davis enters the line-up in the 8th spot to replace Clark. ...

Treedog,

If Smith (DH in the starting lineup) comes into pitch, Davis (player being batted for in the starting lineup) must leave the game.

Having Davis remain in the game in lieu of Clark (batting 8th in the starting lineup) would be an illegal substitution.

This is not that difficult, and it's "black letter law" straight out of the FED rules book. Both the DH and the player for whom he is batting are locked into the same spot in the batting order for the duration of the game.

Once the role of DH is terminated, they cannot both participate in the game concurrently. That's the rule.

JM

[bassfam11]

Treedog,

If Smith (DH in the starting lineup) comes into pitch, Davis (player being batted for in the starting lineup) must leave the game.

Having Davis remain in the game in lieu of Clark (batting 8th in the starting lineup) would be an illegal substitution.

This is not that difficult, and it's "black letter law" straight out of the FED rules book. Both the DH and the player for whom he is batting are locked into the same spot in the batting order for the duration of the game.

Once the role of DH is terminated, they cannot both participate in the game concurrently. That's the rule.

JM

QFT

:givebeer:

[mstaylor]

In FED once your in the batting order at the start of the game you are locked into it, correct? And once the DH comes into play a defensive position the DH is gone for the rest of the game, correct? So the pitcher must bat when the DH slot is removed. So the Pitcher would have to assume the spot that is being taken over by the DH.

SO... Smith stays put in the lineup at the 5 spot and becomes F1, Davis enters the line-up in the 8th spot to replace Clark. In Fed, Clark can reenter the game as the F3 and bat in the 8th spot. Davis would be Clark's sub so once Clark re-enters Davis is done for the day.

In OBR if DH comes in to play defensively, the F1 assumes the batting spot of the player being taken out. I know that this happen in a Tigers/Angels game a number of years back and also happened this year to the Rays when Maddon screw-up the lineup card.

While this is true about the pitcher batting in the replaced defensive spot, this is different from the OP. The pitcher is remaining as pitcher and the DH is going to a defensive position. If the pitcher goes to a defensive position and the DH doesn't enter the defensive line-up, the pitcher stays in the DH spot and the DH is done.

Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.

Once a pinch hitter bats for any player in the batting order and then enters the game to pitch, this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.

[BrianC14]

While this is true about the pitcher batting in the replaced defensive spot, this is different from the OP. The pitcher is remaining as pitcher and the DH is going to a defensive position. If the pitcher goes to a defensive position and the DH doesn't enter the defensive line-up, the pitcher stays in the DH spot and the DH is done.

Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.

Once a pinch hitter bats for any player in the batting order and then enters the game to pitch, this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.

Mike - no.

The DH entered the game to pitch.

Here's the OP:

Team A has a DH (Smith) in the 5 hole for the pitcher, Davis.

Late in the game, Smith enters the game... to pitch. Davis, the pitcher, stays in the game and moves to first base.

Clark, the first baseman who was batting in the 8 spot, leaves the game.

I know that the DH is now extinguished on this substitution so there's no issue there.

The coach asked where Smith (the former DH and now pitcher) should be in the batting order?

There's never been a question about the role of the DH being terminated.

The question was "where does the (former) pitcher, who is now playing first base, bat in the order"?

[mstaylor]

I was pointing out the difference between OBR and FED. In Fed they are tied together and may not be in the game at the same time period. You can not move the pitcher to a defensive position and put him in another batting spot. In OBR, you can.