ErichKeane

In OBR it is a balk for the feint to 3rd. The "3rd to 1st is a balk!" thing is because the "fake to 3rd" is illegal, not the action to 1st (another of my many pet peeves here...). I am not sure what I would have called here... I'd have to be more familiar with the rules of the tourney here to decide whether they really MEAN "OBR balks, + NFHS everything else", or if there is some non-umpire TD making the rules silly/not clear. In the former case, Balk. In the latter, "It wasn't a 3rd to 1st move, so fine, if you dislike it, talk to your melon-head TD". As far as NFHS, noumpere is correct here.

The 'legitimate attempt' here I think DOES require that the touching of the base would have a 'good chance' at causing an out, but I think 'attempt' is a bit of a loaded word here that requires some level of 'intent', which is the question here. Consider; F3 is holding the runner on 1st. F3 gets a line-drive right to him, which he catches, while still on the base because he was lazy leaving it on the hold (so now a double play!). He then sees that R3 is off the base, and tries to throw over, and sails it out of bounds. Does R2 score, or is he on 3B?

Off topic a touch, but thank you for this! I had one this weekend that left 1 team pretty grumpy over it. 14U tourney, I'm on plate (2 man, partner was in B I think, so at least 1 runner on, but that isn't relevant, definitely 2 outs). Slow grounder in front of F4, who was playing deep, so F3 comes in and gets it near the mound. F4 does NOT cover, so it is a foot race to 1st base. F3 gets across the base before the runner gets to the base, so my partner gets the out. BR continues running through the base, and ends up colliding with F4, who inexplicably ran 'behind' the base. Both are sprawled out on the field, coaches dust them off, and help them back to the dugouts (and everyone continues playing after). My partner and I (as well as not asserted differently by anyone) both believe neither was paying attention to each other and both were watching F3, so there was no obstruction chance. OHC of course comes to me during warmup pitches saying that I need to 'do something' about it. I tell him I have nothing in my power to do, and that no rules have been broken. He says, "I am not disputing he was out or anything, but he (F4) shouldn't have been there!". All I could say was, "sure, but there is nothing the rules permit me to do about it..." He went away grumpy, but didn't mention it again (I saw him 2 games AFTER that the same day) and was completely pleasant the rest of the day. During a break waiting on a foul same inning, his F2 asked about it as well, and I just said, "yeah, thats just a part of baseball, hopefully taking that hit taught him something, but there's nothing I can do...", and he shrugged and the game continued as normal.

NFHS Rule: 5-1-1: The ball becomes dead immediately when: d: a foul ball (2-16-1): 2: goes directly from the bat to the catcher's protector, mask, or person without first touching the catcher's glove or hand.

I recall looking this up when a play came up, and a ball is foul/dead if it hits the catcher and isn't caught by the catcher. I don't have the quote handy, I posted about it on facebook.

One of the better umpires I worked with (for quite a few games!) had a few joke answers that he would use, followed by asking "any OTHER questions?". So: Coach: What is your strike zone? Ump: Whatever it is, I'm sure you'll hate it! Any OTHER questions? -or- Ump: Nose to toes, dugout to dugout. Any OTHER questions? He had 2 or 3 others (those are the two I remember), and that typically shut it down. We had 1, 'no really, but seriously?' And his response was "There is only one way to find out! Lets play ball!". When I am asked, it is always "appropriate for this play level", which seems to make them accept it, though it is mostly lower level Rec coaches who ask (tourney guys must know better now!), and they are hoping for 'bigger is better' so they can get home sooner

Yes that is correct. No idea why the defensive coaches pointed out THAT runner rather than R3 who scored, or R2 who was on 3B (or perhaps he was the only one who was confused?), but if the ball isn't caught, IFF or not, tagging up is unnecessary.

FWIW, it doesn't seem to bother any of the other umps. A lot of my partners seem to enjoy hanging out, so I have to stick with them anyway (partners should walk off together!). Another thing I was thinking about: Our tournament org has 'score cards' we have to keep and get initialed by coaches after the game. So at least 1 ump has to get both coaches to initial them. Coaches always 'forget' and so you are chasing them to do it, which keeps you there after the handshake. And I would NOT want to leave a partner alone to do that if it was a contentious one

You're absolutely right about the 1st part... the more that happens, the more they tend to push things onto the officials to pay attention to. We can't even trust coaches/parents to not have a screaming fit at eachother after a game (the whole reason I was asked to do bases at this game!), and we're counting on some teenager to stick around and control/report on it. Its absurd. I guess from their perspective, at least we'll have SOMEONE they can trust (the official) paying attention and letting them know who needs suspension? And yes, a $22 lobster roll was pretty dang spendy. I spent 2/3 of my game-check buying my wife and I dinner after! But the local town (the top level organization doesn't handle umpires or fields)'s youth sports is always in trouble for money, they basically spend all of it on umpires and field maintenance, and most of the field stuff is volunteer on top of that. The world is indeed mad.

We're responsible to keep an eye on the post-game handshakes to prevent/document any goings on there as well (at least in our organization). We're told to not leave the field until the teams are back in their dugouts/down the lines/etc. I usually stand right at the mound while doing it (as trained), which keeps me away from the teams, but my partner stayed right behind home plate so we were much closer this time.

You ain't wrong... maybe the more money would make it WORTH it (though, I'm likely to donate my checks from this org back to the org anyway), but obviously not better. All things considered, this went better than expected. After the ejection (about 2 minutes later), I saw the coach standing in the parking lot, and went to his backup coach and told him he needed to be 'off the property, and where I cannot see or hear him' who passed it on/got him to stand across the street, but I had a fan start yelling 'what is he supposed to do!?!' (plus some grumbling), but I did the stop-hand-shake thing and sternly said 'no', which resulted in the fan saying, "oh, sorry" and everyone quieted down immediately. I was for sure positive that any ejection was going to have a second behind it, but between the two of us, we kept it calm. Another side note: The food cart they had in (lobster rolls!) for this special event was closing up about 2 minutes before the game ended, so by the time I got off they field, they were closed/just closing up their door! Fortunately they felt bad for me and were willing to make me a pair (one for the wife of course!) of sandwiches to take home. Overall, good day at the park

So, I haven't really been doing my 'local' town this year (despite this being what I got started in!) thanks to some questions on my schedule due to my Wife's soccer commitments, and them recruiting a bunch of HS students to give it a shot! BUT, Thursday night I get a call: "Can you do bases for our Senior National game on Tuesday (last night), we had a dust-up on the game tonight, and the same teams are playing again, this time at home?". Typically the town can't afford to do 2 man, despite it being 14U (Fed rules), but they are making an exception to prevent problems here. Mixed with this being a 'special event' with a food cart and 3 games at once, etc, there is a fear of this being a problem night. So, OH BOY. Small town, so about 3 times I get pulled aside in town to be 'warned' about how bad the 'other team's behavior is. Day before the game I'm working a different game, and the to-be-in-my-game HTHC finds me leaving the field and gives me the scoop/back-story (plus an additional warning). Seemingly there was a lot of fan-to-fan chirping, fan-to-coach, coach-to-fan, and coach-to-coach. AFTER the game (and the umpires had left), the to-be-in-my-game VTHC went over to the opposing fans and started a screaming match (at least according to the fans' coach!). Fans' coach gets suspended, arguing coach gets nothing, so I suspect I wasn't getting the full story. Turn to Tuesday, my partner and I have a quick pre-game thanks to him coming from work, but its a guy who works a ton of these games. Game starts off going well enough, though every time there is a slide, the coaches are yelling "call time out!" and the players are asking for it, despite it not being necessary (ball already going back to pitcher, etc). So I just keep saying, "No, walk it up.". I do this about 20 times between the two teams as the game goes on. Individual kids seem to be learning, but the coaches aren't. Side note: MY PU tells me between innings at one point during this how both the VT-F2 and VTHC are getting annoying about the zone. VTHC is doing the "where was that one?" on just about every ball call, and F2 has given him some flak about a strike-zone call at one point (F2 was told to shush, and did at least). BUT, he's been tolerating VTHC, occasionally ignoring his pleas for explanation. Moving on, its top of the inning (5th I think?). Some play happens, I end up at 3B and call the VT runner 'safe'. Coach does the "ask for time", player asks, and I say, "No, walk it up" as I've been doing all game. The ball is far away from the base being thrown back to the pitcher anyway. VTHC(/3BC): "You aren't going to give him time?" Me: "No" VTHC: "What? You aren't going to give him time? Why?" Me: "No, he doesn't need it." VTHC: "You aren't going to give him time? What's your problem?!" Me: (lost temper a touch, so got sassy, I regret this..) "No, I'm not giving him time, this isn't softball, you don't get time just because your pants are dirty. Lets play." Then I walked back to C. VTHC then walks down the 3BL yelling time, and goes to talk to my partner and loudly starts complaining that I didn't give him time. I walk back towards him and say, "No, you do not get to argue my decisions with a different umpire." VTHC: "You didn't listen to me, so I went to the plate ump!" Me: "No, you don't get to umpire-shop for calls, go back to your coaches box now." VTHC: *grumble * grumble * grumble. I walk back, and we continue. During a pitching change in the inning, PU and I discuss it, and he tells me, "I was just about to tell him he couldn't talk to me about your call... also, he was giving you some nasty glares on the way back to the box, 1 more of those and I was going to toss him!". Inning ends. I go grab my water from the 1B fence, turn around, and see VTHC talking with PU. I get a few steps towards the plate, and my partner has tossed VTHC. The conversation went with: VTHC: *explains his grumpiness* PU: "That is my base-umps call, you need to talk to him. I am not going to undercut my umpire. " VTHC: "Well maybe you should." PU: "I'm not going to undercut my umpire." VTHC: "Well you should dammit!" <while walking away> He got tossed right then. I ended up stepping in at that point, stepped between, and pointed him out through the dugout with a "You need to leave the property. Go now." A little bit of a grumble of, "But I am right!", and off he goes. The backup coach was more reasonable, but we had 2 'tough' calls in the bottom of the last inning (HT won by 10RR) that went against him. 1 I'm sure my partner got right (a play at the plate where the ball beat the catcher, but instead of tagging, just put the glove on the plate, runner apparently stepped around it), and 1 I'm sure I flubbed (R1,R2,R3, I called IFF, F5 missed the ball, then chased R2 to 3B, where I got the call right. Behind me, R1 (now on 2nd) hears the dugout yelling "he didn't tag up!", so starts running back. I book it across the field to follow the throw, but am still only just past the mound when the head first slide back to 1B mixed with a tag and a cloud of dust all happen, so I don't see enough to call out, so I call safe. VT bench (including both remaining coaches) start yelling about how he tagged his hand, but I ignored and we continued the game. After the game, he ended up snubbing both of us on the handshakes APPARENTLY the head of the organization was there, and pulled us aside afterwards to hear our 'side'. As much of you are about to do, just about every other sentence we spoke was responded to with, "oh, so thats when you tossed him?".

So this is one... I had an almost-ejection on Saturday that I ended up being glad I was slow/flabbergasted on. I'm in a tourney (6 games that day, 4 behind the plate) for 13U. Working through my 1st game (I'm going to see the same team in the next game), and 1 batter is PARTICULARLY shocked on every called strike, and is being a little demonstrative to his bench about it. Nothing directed at me, so he stays in the game. He ends up striking out looking 3 of his 4 at bats. On the 4th AB (a strike-out to end the inning), he is grumbling on his way back to the dugout. Mid-way through the warm-up pitches, the coach comes out of the dugout a few feet, and says pretty loudly, "Hey Erich, I just wanted to let you know, my batter says that all of those strikes you've called on him today are balls. I just thought you should know." I'm mentally flabbergasted/shocked/WTF-did-you-just-say-to-me, so don't toss him before he has a chance to add, "I obviously don't agree with him, but I think you should know.". He comes over and more quietly says to me, "sorry for that, but I'm hoping he'll learn something". Game ends in a run-rule, I go grab a snack, and come back to the same team. SAME kid, comes up, strike 1 is dead center of the plate, mid-thigh. He again complains to the dugout, and his coach says, "Yep, still a strike!". Strike-2, same deal, "That one is ALSO still a strike". Strike-3: "Pretty sure you've already seen that pitch be a strike today!". Hangs his head on the way into the dugout. AB#2 and on: KID ACTUALLY SWINGS. He grounded out once, got on due to an error 2x. I mentioned this to the Site Director after the game, and he told me the coach is actually SD's son! Also, he said that the team had JUST lost about 1/2 the kids and both coaches to a different club that week, so his son took over and is working with some of their non-tourney kids and trying to get them into shape. They got run-ruled both games, and the coach (plus the rest of the players!) were great. But MAN, I was a quicker-reaction-time from tossing that coach. I mentioned to father/SD that he was about 1/10th of a second from being tossed for it, so hopefully he doesn't try to repeat it

@Mister B is from my area, so I think I've seen exactly what he means a bunch. The act he's talking about (I think!) is: Pitcher comes set. He breaks set and starts his motion toward the plate. While doing so (leg in air/etc), he takes the ball out of the glove, puts it back into the glove (often not all the way out? But at least 'hands apart'), pulls hands apart again, and throws it. Its sort of a mini-pump as a part of their motion to the plate. I've not called it at all since it doesn't seem like a big enough bugger to pick (or even if it is a bugger!), but it is something that seems odd.

Ok, I think that sounds like an appropriate rubric for figuring it out here. Thanks!

So this came up in slow-pitch last night (player, not ump), but I only do OBR/Fed, so thats what I'm interested in. OBR 5.06(b)(4)(G) has "If the throw is the first play by an infielder and the batter-runner has not reached first base when the throw was made, award all runners from time of pitch.". I'd mistakenly thought it was 'first throw by an infielder' (given the other limitations), not 'first play by an infielder', and talked about it with the ump between innings (who was unaware of any 'first play by an infielder' rule, and said he thought it was always time of throw. But again, slow-pitch/softball are different, so when we discussed it after the game (he came up to me on the way out, and we walked to cars together), he said he'd look it up/thought it was interesting. However, the way our play went left me wondering how much action is 'first play' here. In this case, R1, R2, grounder to F5. F5 picks up the ball right next to 3B, steps slightly to the side and touches 3B, and continuing what is basically a 'single motion' (He picked up the ball while moving to step on 3B, basically got ball with R foot in air, dropped R foot on base, threw ball), throws to 1B and out of play. R1 had made it to 2B at the point of the throw by the ump's judgement (R2 and R1 had not made it to their base). Ump sent R1 home on this play, B/R to 2nd. In this case there was at least a perceived motion to step on 3B (had there not been an R2, he probably would have just picked up the grounder without moving his foot to the base, and instead fielded it with his foot ~8 inches from the base), so I suspect the ump did the correct award here. HOWEVER, what if the step on the base was 'incidental' in this case? Same situation, except the F5 fields the ball while in contact with the base in a 'natural' position already, and throws it that way. Is that sufficient to constitute a 'play'?

That is an interesting rule! The comment says: I think we'd have a difficult time justifying this as 'for the purpose of deceiving the runner'. That said, if we DID judge that, the award would be odd, I'm not sure what the 'nullification' would be here. At least 1 base would be BR to 1st, but if the crew were to have killed it right then, I don't see how the crew would judge anything here.

Do I got this right, Boones 4th of the year? Season record is 11... wonder if he'll be the one to break it!

The WORST part of porta-mounds is when they are either quickly sloped down the edge, or worse, just a wedge. Even in leadoff leagues we're using wedges when that is all that is available, so a pickoff either has barely ANY step, or falls off the side. My partners and I usually decide that the 'step to the base' rule all-but disappears because of it, and turns into 'steps not to a different base'. Also, I cringe every time a player has to come off of one of those mounds to the side.

Yep 😕 We end up having a lot of our games on softball fields, particularly when it isn't 90 foot bases. I hate the porta-mounds this results in.

Thats actually about 1/2 of why I posted it It was the one time I've had a coach come out, admit he didn't know the rule/understand the rule, and take blame for his actions. Perhaps this is just 'the bar is how low?', but it impressed me at the time.

So story from a few weeks ago I was reminded about, so figured i'd share:) OBR rules tourney (with some various modifications that are unimportant). UIC/TDs have no problem with the coaches at the door on the bucket, so we allow it. I've never seen it come into play, every time it hits the bucket, it was going to go into the dugout anyway... until: Weird shaped dugouts, they have only 1 entrance onto the field on the 'home plate' side, and are cut into the field. You can see them here : ) There are now roofs on the dugouts, but the only opening is the home-side. There is also a concrete 'lip' now thanks to the dirt getting lower over time. As I've said, I've never seen the bucket matter before, but did 2x in 1 game: Top of ~2nd inning, VT in the 3rd base dugout, 1st and 2nd. Batter hits a ball to RF, RF sees R2 going around 3rd, and fires home. AND hits the VT's coach's bucket and goes into the dugout. I kill it, and leave the bases loaded. Coach comes out and asks why there are no base awards, I explain that it hit the bucket, so its a dead ball, and I can't give him benefit for his bucket causing the problem. He says 'well, it would have gone in the dugout anyway!', and I said that I don't really judge it that way, the concrete lip and the angle it came in makes that impossible to judge, so I just killed it. He relents, and goes back onto his bucket. BOTTOM of the same inning. R2, grounder to F5 who throws it over the 1B head. R2 is stopping at 3rd, but F3 gets a little excited and fires home.... and bonks right off the same bucket (though was clearly not going into the dugout). I call time, award two bases to everyone. Coach says from the dugout (not really a yell, since its like 15 feet, but loud enough I can hear): "Award because it is my bucket?" Me: "Yep". Him: "Urgh.... *yells* Sorry guys, that one is on me!" and moves his bucket into the dugout with his head held in shame. He came up to me after the game and said he'd never even heard of it happening before, and had discussed it with UIC during the game, and was amazed I 'got it right' despite being such an obscure rule. I responded, "thats why they pay us the little bucks!", and he chuckled, said "see you later, have a good one!" and walked away.

Mantle: "Also, its 9U, and Satan's team brings all their parents!".

It was a partner, but yeah, I get what you mean. Unless someone orders me otherwise, I'm not changing. I find if I do it every time out (verbal plus physical), catchers seem to notice and work off the signal.

I actually only JUST last weekend had someone tell me I didn't have to put the ball in play with the bases empty. I've just been doing it, and it is muscle memory by now. I find it is a mental 'split' point between time in/time out that makes the mental approach easier.