SH0102

I do not know of any mechanic, approved or used anywhere, where BU goes home from the middle. In 3 and 4 man, there is a mechanic where U1 slides down to the plate, but not in 2-man. If PU goes to 3rd, and there is an overthrow, PU also has the plays at the plate. Are you saying on a play where R1 goes to 3rd and batter gets out at first, BU should head home? I guess I could see the logic in it, since there are no other runners left except R1 who is now going to third....maybe use it in Rec Summer Ball, but anywhere you may be evaluated, I would not recommend it.

Best topic/discussion in a while…i had 45-ish ncaa games last year and about 25 (most games were DH) different pre-game answers to this scenario. I heard BU has everything (despite cca manual saying otherwise) about 75% of the time I heard PU will take third if BU has to commit to 1st (ball that has no chance at being double play, such as dribbler or muffed ball) about 15% of time I heard exactly as CCA says 10% of the time. Most common reasons to go against the manual: 1) A good BU can get that play at third 2) Mechanics are developed to be in the best position for the most likely play. its #2 that makes me accept that… I probably had 500 balls between college and summer where I watched slide at second and play at first and 1 ball where R1 was not only safe at second but advanced to third on a ball that never left infield. But I think the best answer is the one about reading the situation …I now head towards the mound for slide at second ; if they are safe or no play there, I’ll drift a step or two towards third while preparing to help at first. If he’s out or clearly not advancing, I’ll take a step or two towards first for a better angle on swipe/foot. If overthrown, I hightail it to third, but as I said, that maybe happened once last year

Movement by itself is not INT. Hindrance to ability to make a play is INT. Hitting the bat is a fluke, but if I could coach my catcher to hit the bat with his throws, I’d get 100% outs on every steal ? Did he move into the path of catcher? He actually moved away from catchers path.

Definitely not CI To me, that’s a whole lot of nothing. The rule says “a movement other than a swing that hinders the catchers ability to make a play”. does the batter moving away from the path a catcher throws to 3rd (towards Mound/infield) constitute a hindrance to him throwing? Watch the catcher, he makes no step at all to clear the batter. If that’s BI, I am coaching my son, who is a catcher, to just throw at the batter henceforth

Thought the 3-1st move is legal in NFHS?

Good question/discussion to be had...unless the runner dramatically slows, that is awfully hard to judge, and then to use mental math to say "well if he had run at his normal rate instead of that rate, he probably would be safe"....I don't see much possibility of awarding home here...as the NCAA rules interpreter says, "some calls can not be overturned without causing more problems"....that would be one of them. I think at best, offense now has bases loaded (put runner back on 3rd) but of course the DHC is going to be upset now because you took essentially two outs off the board...if you judged the runner had knowledge of the out call and slowed down, I would put him back at third. If he appears to just be going, out stands. I don't see a manner in which you get the out at home and then say "eh, run counts" unless the runner slowed to a crawl and was thrown out on a bang-bang play or something

If you search the HS and College threads on here, there are threads devoted to the annual test questions

I promise I am not being snarky, but have do you just read the rule book? I mean, that is honestly the best "tool" there is. I have been a part of baseball, as a player, fan, coach, and umpire, for almost 40 years now and when I started doing college, I dove into the rulebook and was blown away by how much there was to learn, especially the importance of definitions. I made my own quizzes and sent them to a friend also starting out in college. 10 - 20 questions from each of the nine sections of the rule book (I did not do official scoring) and then a separate one on replay and getting together situations. For me, that was far more helpful than just googling some source, I read the rule(s) and thought of different scenarios where this could come into play, and made my own case plays and questions about them. That mental visualization helped me retain the info and draw upon it when the situations arose in season. To each their own, but I think the rule book itself, coupled with your own version of studying and manipulating situations to help you learn them, is a great tool. UmpireBible i find helpful if I need to navigate rule sets in a short time span (NCAA game today, HS games tomorrow, OBR youth games saturday or something)

To put the good information above in laymen's terms....if it is done in one motion, not a balk. If it is two distinct motions where the first was not disengaging the rubber, it's a balk. And to answer your question, which you kind of answered yourself, if he did not disengage the rubber, he is still a P, and thus a ball out-of-play would be one base. Again, laymen's terms, one motion = one base award, two motions = two base award (disengage, then throw makes him an INF = 2 bases)

This is actually a very interesting question. I will preface what I say by saying THIS SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN....I have done a million games solo and 2-man in my life and can't recall ever having a pitcher and batter ready to go before I am, 99% of the time I am the one trying to speed them up, but I digress. The reason it is interesting is I am trying to think of how a protest would be handled by a disallowed HR when the ball was never killed. Yes, it's already been established what an umpire SHOULD have done (hustle back, call time when he sees action is about to occur, etc). But if the ball is live, the batter is in the box, the pitcher does everything legally (come set, take sign on rubber, etc), does a rule support disallowing the pitch and resultant HR? Could an offensive HC protest and win based on rule alone? And what defines an umpire not being ready? I have seen some HPU's in my son's youth games struggling to get their mask on, or fumbling for their indicator...are we to say we wouldn't allow it if HPU isn't even back to dirt area but would if he was behind plate and just "not ready" himself to view the pitch? This is a question I would put in the "fun to discuss at dinner with other umpires" category. And during COVID, some umpires called from behind the mound...is the P required to check on the umpire behind him before delivering a pitch? I could see the umpire not being ready behind P and he delivers pitch....does that change anything? Behind the plate you would surmise the P should see you aren't there, but disallowing the HR benefits the team that was most at fault (batter isnt looking back necessarily, but P sure is)

I can appreciate this philosophy...when something goes from "want to do" to "have to do", it becomes much less enjoyable. All of a sudden, that storm that washes the fields for 3 days is a curse because it takes away the money you banked on having. Umpiring has paid for my vacations (save the $ until have enough to go), and also funds my day care throughout the school year. I made about $7k doing college last season, and no joke, right as season ended our HVAC took a dump and cost $6800 to replace. Whole college season just to pay for that, but it was a lot better than having to take it out of savings because we didn't have it. That said, as I work my 9 - 5, and get older, I am also realizing that when I am on my deathbed, I am not going to look back and wish I had worked more at my job, or made a little more money, I am going to wish I had more time to enjoy the things I enjoy. And umpiring/officiating , aside from my family, is what I enjoy most. Sports was my first love, as a 2-3 year old, and has been my entire life. I have umpired probably over 1,000 games in the last 3 years and can remember maybe one or two that I didn't enjoy, and that was because I hadn't learned great game management yet. I wish I could make umpiring my career (professional player would have been nice but that ship sailed a long time ago), and I have done the Math (see earlier posts)....it is possible, bc if I dive in, I might be able to get a lower level D1 schedule down the road and actually make some good money, but my family is most important, and I won't do it because I would never get to spend time together as a family (with kid during day, with wife late at night, never together the 3 of us) But guys who work Big 10/12, ACC, SEC, PAC-12 schedules/weekends, can make a year's salary in 3 months and work as they please in the other 9....too late for me to board that ship, but my son is 14 and loves umpiring and is very good. I will not discourage him from pursuing it bc he has a chance.

I agree, the key to officiating for income (non pro) is two things, making D1 and having flexibility, meaning multiple sports. As you said, if you could officiate football in Fall, wrestling or basketball in winter, and baseball/softball/lacrosse etc in Spring, you could make a lot of money. I know some people who are D1 in two sports, idk of any doing three sports at that level, but I think the lesser known sports (field hockey, lacrosse, etc) would be easier to work up due to less competition . There’s a reason they get paid same for a 60 min game as baseball does for 6 hour doubleheader, it isn’t bc the sport brings in more money, it’s supply and demand…not many officials know those sports so have to pay to get them

According to zip recruiter, San Diego unified (2nd largest in CA), the entry level salary teacher salaries at the 75th percentile are $44k, meaning 3/4 start at that or below. more than we start out at but hardly what I would call drastically more, especially given COL there. By the way, as an educator and married to one, super undervalued and underpaid profession, so kudos to your wife

My wife’s first teaching job paid $26k, mine paid 30k. No way do first year teachers make “way more” where you live. Even in NYC, one of the most expensive cities to live in America, starting pay is in low 40s. Once you have a few years and a masters, you make a lot more. And I said in two different posts about no insurance or retirement.

Quick Math: An official (let’s do baseball only for now) living in a year round baseball setting, can do one game a day M - F (evening), let’s say $60 a pop. Weekend tourneys can do 4 games a dat Sat and Sun, also $60 a pop. That’s $780 a week, x 50 weeks (take out major holidays), that’s almost $40k a year. Most starting teachers make $30k so it’s doable. And yes that’s everyday, but for five days a week you’re working 2 hours plus some drive time. Summers however can net more. Where I live, tourneys are Thursdays - Sun, 4-5 games a day, so can net more during those months. Do college? I disagree about “new guys only got a few games”. Last year was my first year doing college and I had to turn away games bc I have a day job and I was getting offers every single day. But I digress, on weekdays, I made $225-300 doing a college DH (better than the 60 mentioned above for a weekday). Sometimes did a single D2 game paying $190, not bad for 3 hours work plus driving. I officiate wrestling in winters bc where I live, there is no winter baseball. Used to do HS until realized youth is where the money is at. HS tourney pays $250 for all day Friday (4-11pm) and all day Saturday (8am - 7pm). Youth pays $30/hour under table and runs 8-9 hour days on Saturday and Sunday. There’s $500 for same two days of work. I know People who foregoing doing HS basketball for $75 a game bc they can go do CYO or YMCA games for $25 a pop that are 40 mins each and crank out 4-5 of those in one weekday evening (usually run like (5-9pm) and 8-10 on a weekend. Still only $100 on weekday but if you’re netting an average of $100 per day, doing child’s work (CYO/ymca) you’re making same as a teacher As I mentioned though, it’s a grind, and doesn’t have insurance or retirement, and you’re working evenings and weekends, prime hours for family life or social life. But you can easily net 40k without doing high level ball and only working a couple hours a day during week and all day weekends. If you have a supportive spouse who has benefits for you to be on, could make it work. And to your question about other sports, yes, they make more. I did a D3 baseball DH, made $225, was 7 hours of baseball. The field hockey official at same school, both started at noon (game 1 and field hockey). She was paid $225 for the 1 hour and 10 min game, same D3 school. Lacrosse pays even more, games are about 90 mins.

I agree about the career thing…unless you can make MLB or at least minors so you can do high level D1 college, umpiring will be your second job, not career. Ive actually done the Math, I can make as much umpiring college and amateur baseball, along with wrestling (my other cert for HS and below, not college) and youth stuff like soccer, basketball, volleyball, year-round, as I do my normal day job. But the equal pay (and more fun) would come at the cost of my family and retirement. Officiating is evenings and most money is to be made on weekends. If I officiated every weeknight and all day events Sat and Sun, I could make as much, but I’d never be home when my wife is free and kid is awake, and I’d have no pension or health care. Now, my college games pay $225-300 for a DH bc I’m D2 and D3. Guys who do Big Ten, ACC, etc, can make $40k or more in a 4-5 month season if they do a season of those games , but you had to be AA or AAA umpire to get there typically, so that means pro school, years in the minors, etc. I applaud your passion and hope you keep it up, but if you are “career or bust”, I fear we will lose a good, passionate, official, and we don’t want that. Keep getting better, work your way up to whatever level you can, and give back. If you get good, there is money to be made running camps and clinics for newbie umpires

I have never had balls come out while running (I use the Smitty ones). I keep the plate brush in my right front pocket and my notepad/folder for trips and lineup cards in my right back pocket, as ironically, that is what comes out when I run. When I started doing college, I tried to look like the MLB guys, with the trips/pad in my chest pocket and a nice pen clipped over pocket tongue, and I have had so many times where that fell out, I gave up. Since others are sharing, I also wear two balls bags, and try to keep equal # of balls in each, and when an odd total, the extra in right. I also keep nicer balls on right side as those are first I grab (being right handed).

@BabblingBlue68the issue isn’t being trigger happy, and despite this guy clearly being an a**hat, you don’t want to go to his next game ready to dump him. Every game is a new day. I encourage you to simply work on confidence, which comes with experience, repetitions, and mastery of rules (and protocols such as what’s appealable). You are there to adjudicate the rules and keep order. Questioning a call is not by itself ejection worthy, but honestly, 98% of the calls that elicits “oohs” and “come ons” are forgotten during the next at-bat. If you’re confident and in good position, no one really can say anything. I suspect that as much as the coach has a reputation in your mind, you have one too. If you know the coaches, they know you too, and you self admit you take too much and shy away from ejections. So guess what, you invite harsh treatment bc yes, most respectable coaches won’t respect you, bc they don’t view you as being competent or confident, which has nothing to do with your skill in being correct on safe/out. Think of it this way…EVERY close call (“banger”) will upset half the people in attendance. They happen often. So why doesn’t every single game get out of control? Bc the umpire looks like he knows what he is doing, is in position, looks the part, and is confident in his call. If spoken to, he is professional and calm, if mistreated he commands respect and ejects the person. So they ooh and ahh and then move on. Only the most egregious situations and weird rules that no one knows cause issues. You don’t have to be an assbag matching the coach to get respect. You just have to be composed . You mentioned it got heated, it shouldn’t. If you have to go ape***, it long ago should have been an ejection.

Yes, as long as he steps toward second (assuming he did a lift and turn), or disengaged from the rubber by stepping back. He can’t do a spin move to first, stop when realizing runner left, and then throw to second

Welcome to the site and umpiring, we need more folks for sure. To your post: 1. I say this as someone who has not had to eject many people. Keeping a coach in a game is not a praise-worthy event. While some umpires may eject for things they shouldn’t, NOT ejecting for things you should is not a compliment to you, in fact it’s the opposite. The umpires that follow you will now have to deal with that behavior and if they toss, they get “well the last umpire let me….” —- in line with this, the accusation of cheating is an immediate ejection. There is no warning, there is no “talking him down and keeping him in the game”. Why? Besides the fervent lack of professionalism and questioning your integrity, let’s say an inning later on a close play, it goes their way. You called it based on your judgment but to the other team and fans, you made that call bc he got under your skin. Now every call is questioned, for both sides. 2) Be careful, and do your part to educate by not allowing, what you call appeals. An appeal is based on an infraction, leaving early, missed base, or a misapplication of a rule. You have a banger at first, dont listen to anything other than something like “I want to check if he pulled his foot”. Even then, if you’re sure he didn’t, you don’t allow it, but “appealing three plays” when they are all safe/out/ball/strike is not a thing, and I’d let him know (in professional wording, unlike what I’m about to say) that he’s appealed nothing, he just doesn’t like calls that don’t go his way.

The reason people “let it go” is because no disadvantage has occurred. I say play and pitcher had his foot off the Mound and just puts it on and everything else that follows is normal, there is nothing to correct. what IS in the rule book is the right and duty of an umpire to correct advantages and disadvantages caused by their error. If pitcher has foot off rubber and I say play, and a balk or out occurs, damn right I’m killing it bc my error led to that. you can’t use a situation where I said play before pitcher engages the rubber and nothing happens as comparison to a hidden ball trick or balk. Ball was put in play by error, no advantage or disadvantage can occur. An out on runner or a balk is an advantage to one team that should never have happened.

The issue that keeps popping up is “he deceived ME” so he should be punished , which is not supported by rule. Recontra (and others of same belief)…if you only strive to do 16u rec ball and below, then do what you want I guess…if you want to work varsity, college, etc, then I suggest you check your “beliefs” at the door and learn the rules and focus on those, bc that’s all we are there to judge (and game management). it is perfectly fine to make a mistake, not so much to make it, hear it was one, and double down with “well I believe that it should be …” I once had a team pull off a SUCCESSFUL hidden ball trick after a double. Offensive coach came down and argued that “it’s bush league”. I told him straight up, “coach, my job isn’t to enforce what is and isn’t bush league, it’s to enforce the rules. What they did is legal”

I don’t have my rule book on me (at work) but I believe by DEFINITION , a balk is a live ball infraction and can only occur during live ball. (I know this is true but I think it’s in rules too) By definition, a ball can not be live until certain conditions are met. You can not call balk. You are getting into an ethics debate and not a rules one. Since they intentionally deceived, they must be punished!! nooo…what happened is they want to try a “cool trick play” and don’t know the rules. If ethics was an issue, then all hidden ball TRICKS would be illegal because it’s deceptive. So is a lefty lifting his leg looking like a pitch and then throwing to first. So is the 3rd to 1st move in high school. They tried a play, it can’t work because it can’t be live. And their “punishment” is that they gave away what they want to do and won’t get a runner on it now later when they try it “legally”

Drop every word but “play”. if you say “the ball is back in play”, at what point is pitcher (and your partner if you have one) allowed to call balks, outs on pick offs, etc? when you say “the” or “play”? im assuming play, so just say play