SH0102

He did catch the ball and was throwing to second to try and get R1. SenorAzul, that jives with what I mentioned but I guess my question is where the line becomes prolonged? I told him yes it would be a conference bc they came out and checked his fingers for 30-45 seconds. To me that happens on a lot of hit by pitch, sometimes at plate, sometimes halfway to first, sometimes at first, and they can’t get free conference every time. I said bleeding and concussion they could, regular hit by pitch no, but I suppose HBP where guy is writhing on the ground, we allow it for “free”

Was doing an indoor intersquad today (college) and was asked two questions; well I was asked one question directly and then had a situation a coach was telling his team something that is not true…figured I’d double back here: 1. Batter is hit on hands by a pitch, is being looked at by coach near plate. Catcher walks out to pitcher during this whole time. Coach asks me “in a game, would that be a defensive conference?” 2. Runners on 1st and 3rd, lefty pitching. Lifts lead leg, R1 takes off, he steps down and throws to first without gaining ground, so I come up big with “that’s a balk”. Coach comes out and is telling his team they need to play it out, that’s a free play and balks don’t kill it in college. what say you with #1? I already know that’s wrong in #2, in order for a balk to be ignored, the batter and runners must advance , but without a pitch the batter doesn’t go anywhere , there is no provision for offense can elect the result of the play on a balk, it’s either ignored or it’s enforced….I wasn’t sure if it was my place to “instruct him” on that. Figured I would if he asked but wouldn’t seek him out to correct him.

I do not believe there is one answer; each person is going to be different. Yesterday I was at D2 college indoor and about 30 mins in I felt it switch, all of a sudden I went from unsure on some close pitches to really seeing it . I believe it’s a product of timing, so however many reps it takes to get your yips out and have good timing and tracking

While I don’t think it matters, I see many youth square up on 3-0 obviously taking but trying to crowd plate if you will

That sounds incomplete. The general safety rule is if you square to bunt, you can not pull it back and then swing. To imply they must try to bunt a pitch 4’ outside or in the dirt bc they can’t pull it back to take a “ball” is ludicrous

Good point, I assumed he meant player was ejected but had nowhere to go safely. I believe hs rules state if they can not be monitored, they can stay on bench bc it’s liability to send an angry teenager out of sight and sound without supervision

A very well respected umpire, who uses this site, taught me this before. It must be pre-gamed of course, but essentially any ball in U1's coverage area that does not require him to go out, this mechanic works similar to in 3-man when U3 takes the fly ball in LF while running to 2nd, holding his palm out to say "keep rotation in order b/c I got this". Let's say the ball is caught 240 feet from home plate by the center fielder drifting towards right. Why not let U1 take this catch from 130-140 feet away instead of 220-230 for plate umpire? What is the difference? Is it worth it to let HPU make call from 100+ feet further so U1 gets the touch of 1st? PU can get that touch and let BU get the catch. For routine plays, this is very easy no matter which way you go ("normal" or this "new"). For trouble balls, BU is going out so doesn't apply. So when is this better? For that weird play where the guy "should" make a fairly routine catch but bobbles, stumbles at the last minute, the RF haphazardly crashes into CF who is camped waiting for the ball. Looks a whole lot better to make the catch/no-catch from near 2nd base than it does halfway between home and mound. I have only ever used it with him and I tried introducing it once to a newer guy who didn't really know either way to know it was different, so I would not say it is "common", but my umpire friend who is much higher up the ladder than I said it was being taught at some advanced camps.

^^^^ what he said...a kid celebrating is not an issue, Now, if he uses that opportunity at home plate to high-five a teammate to remind you of how bad you suck, that's a separate issue. Do not go looking for problems or look to create them. If 15 kids come out of the dugout to congratulate a teammate, no one is going to say "but but but, that one kid right there, #17, is not supposed to exit the dugout!!" Save that argument for a real issue, like obstruction/int/malicious contact, missed base, etc.

Long story short, ball is in play until you can inspect it, kids keep running. Whole lot easier conversation to award the ground rule double after than to stop kid at second when you shouldn’t have

Good Point, I love 3-man, wish it was used more at those levels around here.

“That guy” is the guy no one wants to work with. It isn’t one specific reason. Never wants to do the plate , is an a-hole to coaches or players (yes once in a while they deserve it but we should always be the most professional people on the field), you mentioned the shoes and clothes, if your partner shows up all raggedy, what is your impression? What do you think coaches impression will be? Guess how that means YOUR day is going to go too? Probably the worst sin is throwing your partner under the bus. Imagine being PU, borderline pitch you call strike. 1B coach asks your partner, “man; that was a strike??” And your partner says “yeah he missed that one” or “I’ll tell him between innings to bring it up some in the zone”. Wanna work with that guy ? Even if you did miss it, we understand that like players who make errors, coaches who send a kid home gets thrown out by 30 feet, no one is perfect. “Yes coach, he had it a strike so it’s a strike. No way you or I have a better view over here” As for camps and “my path”, I’ll say that if you go to esteemed camps where college assignors are watching, make sure you’re ready. A fellow umpire who is very good and gets some big D1 games (power five non cons) and who i respect tremendously thinks very highly of me, I got four MLB draft league games because he recommended me to the assignor, but I mentioned a camp where the top dogs are at, I mean ACC, big ten, etc, and he said “give it a year or two”. Not because I stink, but bc if you make a bad impression, it’s very hard to change their perception of you. I was fortunate to have spent 4 years working HS travel games and tournaments with a core group of college umpires. Someone I did some hs games with was in the group and one weekend they were short and I got asked to fill in, I did a good job for an amateur but I was ripped apart on mechanics, timing, etc. but the thing is, I listened. My first weekend I did 4 games with the head of the group and he said his game 1 shredding of me made me better by games 3 and 4, he said I already had heeded his advice and was improved, and that impressed him. Fours years later I took the college test, went to two camps, and impressed the assignors bc I was ready and looked like a college umpire even though I wasn’t yet. This will be my 3rd year in college (2nd if you don’t count the covid shortened year) but like I said, when the assignors saw me, I was well prepared bc of the umpires I was fortunate enough to be around, and now we have a new batch of “kids” that I’m happy to help along too.

I am nowhere near Texas so no help there, but as someone working my way up in the college ranks, here is some advice that has helped me: 1. Eyes open, mouth shut…if someone gives you advice you do not jive with, just thank them, process it, and then use it or lose it. Do not argue or tell them their advice is poor 2. You asked what separates college umpires from HS and below; not really one definitive answer bc there are lots of quality HS umpires who could do college but choose not to, due to travel requirements, or what not. But from someone who learned from college umpires working hs level games, thing that stood out to me were professionalism and attention to detail. No disrespect to HS coaches but 98% of them are teachers, counselors, etc and coach for a couple thousand bucks. College coaches lives depend on it, they feed their families with that job, so handling situations and coaches and game management are crucial, and I was blown away when I worked with college umpires (before I was one) in how they handled the game outside ball/strike/safe/out. Attention to detail meaning they rarely miss a rotation, always signaling, communicating, they know I’ll be at third on a first to third rotation but I would hear about it if I didn’t yell “I’m here, I’m here” or “I’m at third”. So many little things that probably no one else notices, they did, and it’s made me a lot better. 3. Don’t worry about 3 and 4 man camps. You won’t touch 4 man games until you are high level D1 (even mid major D1 uses 3) or get post season championship games, which take time. 3-man, unless your area specifically uses it, also is generally a D1 thing. Last year with covid a lot of D3 went three man but it’s back to 2 now, at least in my region. D2 was two man even during covid, and JUCO and NAIA also are always two man. You need to be a master of 2 man before taking on 3 man; so focus on perfecting that 4. Finally, do not worry or stress about “moving up”. Enjoy the games, enjoy getting assignments, and if you do well, time will come. I got my first D1 game this season and it’s already been canned. I could cry about it or ask to be put on another one, but I’m just thrilled I was even considered for it and it makes me want to work even harder this season at my JUCO, D3 and D2 games so when my number is called again down the road, I’ll hold my own. hope that helps a little

So in your opinion, we should be asking the kids/runners to make a determination when coming into 2nd (or 3rd or home) on a force play as to whether they may or may not alter the play if they don't slide? By that logic, every single play should be argued because they will never think they are altering the play unless they take out the fielder. How about the runner just does what they are obligated to do? What they should be coached to do? If there is a play being made at 2nd base, slide, and slide legally. If you are out by a good amount, peel away from the fielder or get down. The rule does not have caveats for the quality of throw to the fielder, whether R1 is out or not, etc. If a play is being made, they must get down (or get out of the way). The only time I can think they can stand when a play is made at 2nd is when the play was so far ahead of R1 that they can see the fielder leave the vicinity to track down the ball before they attempt to slide. So I am 20 feet away preparing to slide and see a bad throw and the fielder leaving the vicinity of the base, I can stay standing or try to go to 3rd of course if the throw is that bad. But if the fielder is anywhere near the base, bobbled ball, no chance at double play, etc, it matters not. They must slide legally or veer away. End of story

I have to politely disagree here. Everyone saying you can't call FPSR because the fielder wasn't on the bag or bobbled the ball. But you are completely ignoring the safety part of the rule. The rule explicitly says that the double play does not have to be likely or even possible to call FPSR, and there is no caveat that R1 must be out as well. The simple question is, was there a play at the base on a forced runner? (throwing to attempt the out is a play) If so, the runner MUST slide legally or peel away. The 11 year old who can't catch the ball well or line up his feet well does not absolve the runner of his OBLIGATIONS. Now, if the ball clearly beats the runner, the SS misses it and has to leave the bag to go get it, then sure, coming in standing doesn't need to be called because there is no safety issue. But if the fielder is in the vicinity of the base attempting to make a play (catch ball, throw ball, make tag, step on the bag), the runner is one who must follow the rules, and as such, must be called. You can't look at it and say, well F6 missed the base by a step and a half so the runner can do what he wants because they didn't get him out. Corrollary...if a fielder attempts to tag a runner passing by and misses, then heaves the ball into the stands, is it 2 from the throw or pitch? Throw...why? Because the attempt to make an out is a play. Force PLAY slide rule...if there is a force PLAY, runner must slide legally or get out of the way.

Was it a force play? Yes. Did the runner do what he is required to do? No. It’s FPSR

It’s FPSR, he did not slide (or peel off) and his being upright altered the play. There is no caveat in the rule about “as long as the fielder steps here or there” and there is nothing about “R1 must be out to enforce” (going to post before yours). May not like the rule but it is a safety rule first and foremost; a runner may NOT go into the bag standing on a force play ATTEMPT (out or safe is irrelevant), among other things (pop up slide, etc)

If you go to an electronic strike zone, then the art of catching and framing goes away, completely devalues catching. I guess the argument is “we have the technology so why not use it”, but the game has been around so long and maybe I’m old school, but the beauty of the game is the adaption to umpires, the relationship between umpire and catcher, the human element. Personally I’ll advocate for perfect umpires when the players are perfect. In the meantime, just have more accountability for really bad calls. I don’t mean a little down or little off the plate. If an umpire is really bad, give them a chance to fix it, if not, there are lots of good umps itching to get a call up.

Wasn’t this exact scenario and question just posted a few days ago? Regardless, answer above is correct. if there had been less than two outs, batter is out but all runs still count.

I’m a cavs fan and didn’t even know about this. Did the nba come out with a statement about this? I’ve never officiated basketball but when the ball is dead, I’d surmise you can only get a technical foul, which if they want to call there , whatever. But when can you count a basket that didn’t go in? Guys get fouled all the time going for alley-OOP or layups and they don’t count the basket unless it goes in…what rule allows you to count the basket on a foul when it doesn’t go in ?

I think it is perfectly clear. Even after the bolded part it says “on a force play, does not slide…”. A runner always has two options on a force play. Slide legally or peel off.

Mud, back in my original post, I said that most if not all of us on this site are passionate about umpiring. If all we cared about was a side gig and some slush money, we wouldn’t bother doing extra stuff like discussing rules, situations, ejections, etc. I think everyone on here could talk about at least something they are doing or trying. And idk; the pay has never been an issue for me…I told my son, you’re getting 50-60 bucks cash for 2 hours work (equal to about $30-40/hr if taxes were being taken out), so you better work like you’re being paid well because you are. Even college, it’s a grumble about getting $225 for a DH, for 6 hours of actual work (plus drive time and between games I know), but my actual on field work I’m getting over $35/hr for doing something I love. I think the biggest requirement is a passion for the game, and we see in the ratings of mlb that is waning. We really need to hone in on the kids currently playing, get them doing some games and making some money while they are playing so whenever they are done (cut in HS, after HS, after college) they are more likely to stick with it. My kid makes more in 2 hours doing a game on a fall weeknight from 6-8pm than his buddies do in 6 hours at Wendy’s (well, before covid raised their rates to 15/hr at fast food so now it’s about 5 hours after taxes), and doesn’t have to wait two weeks for his money

LRZ, I’m not disagreeing, but my main point is that we can not expect people who are not umpires to bring in people who are not umpires. If we only bring in the people who voluntarily join, problem can’t be solved. We are not the universal problem but we are the greatest asset in terms of what we can control. As for pay, it isn’t better in college. I did a D3 fall DH, was there 7 hours, made $225. I love it, money is a bonus , doesn’t bother me, I left happy. My friend who is asst AD at school I umpired told me the field hockey official who worked the game from noon (when I started) until 1:15pm and then went home also made $225. 7 hours vs 1:15 for same pay. Neither sport is a $ sport (like football and basketball) so not sure why pay discrepancy

I should mention that scholastic umpiring is not where the money is…my son is looking forward to do long HS games in near future but he will be making $45-50 for a freshman or JV game solo, where in summer he works four games a day, two-man, for $50 cash each. His first summer tournament, he did 8 games in two days and made $400 cash, and went and bought a brand new bike with cash, pretty cool. I would definitely start with youth games to get them started with money. Even football and basketball youth, you can crank out 7-8 games that are 45 mins each for 20-25 a pop. I do youth wrestling and make 30/hr but they still pay the un-certified refs 25/hr plus free food and drink all day. it can be done

So I have tried typing a response 2-3 times and then end up deleting it, I’m gonna give it another go. Part of the problem is us, and by us, I mean established umpires who are in it for the long haul. How much are you, and I don’t mean literally the “you” who is reading this, but just picture everyone you know in general, doing to bring young blood into the brotherhood? I have tried and done some but not enough. If we rely on non-umpires to join the craft by other non-umpires, we will always fall further behind. My son just turned 15, he’s been umpiring for 2 years, been to 2 college camps and another in a few weeks. He has already umpired D1 and D2 college teams on bases during fall ball games and D3 college on the plate. He’s never batted against above 75 as a player but he has umpires 85-90 and done great. I am fortunate to be involved with an association of college umpires who welcome him with open arms and train him (at 13 he only worked with me mostly, last summer at 14 he almost exclusively worked with others) and give him opportunities. But how many would? without using names of people or camps, at his first college camp, several veteran umpires were less than pleased he was there. I heard “why is a kid here” and “he took someone else’s spot”. Most people on this site are passionate about umpiring so probably don’t fit that mold, but several umpires, even in college ranks, do not welcome umpires who are young, less experienced, less talented. At my sons summer game this year, a kid was working solo, and he was bad; I mean bad. He wore shorts and t shirt, no shin guards , only a mask, jumped away from every pitch bc he was afraid of being hit, called strikes the catchers were jumping to try and block, it was bad. Between games of the DH, I asked him if I could do bases for him, work with him, and not take a dime of his money. Between innings I gave him advice, at end of game I gave him my number and said at the end of this season I was buying new gear so he was welcome to have my old stuff (not great shape but free). I never heard from him, he may have hated me, but I was trying to help. Bc as bad as he was, he won’t last long by getting butchered by fans and coaches. The head of my association and another very respected college umpire we’re doing games at a HS field, and in between games, watched the umpires at youth fields. At a 12u game, working solo, was some guy “with terrible mechanics and timing” but when a kid hit a double, he was at 2nd for the close play and had watched batter touch first. They recruited him to join us, train with us, and a few years later he is going to go to pro school. Pretty awesome. Do we as a group do enough? Probably not, I know I don’t. I focus so much on myself and my son that I haven’t done enough for others, that’s actually a goal of mine this next year is to help bring a couple more guys up and help them. if all else fails, the money would bring kids. My 14 year old made $4000 cash last summer and fall, and paid for all his equipment and clothes, so came out with about $3000, that’s about a million to us. ive heard mention of the start up cost…if you have someone you trust and will mentor, what if you bought his stuff for him and worked games with him/her and took half their game fee until it was paid back ? They still walk away with 25-30 cash each game, and 15-20 games later, it’s all theirs. That’s what I did with my son, though admittedly it’s easier bc he can’t disappear on me and not pay me back but it’s a thought. Or donate old gear as you buy new stuff. guess my point is we can all do a lot more than just wait for new people to join our classes and try to bring them along

Action clock and replay (prob won’t have below D1) obviously are different as well. Definitely need to be familiar with pitch click and all its nuances. You maybe can get away with not being up on all rules at low level D3, but I wouldn’t go to D2 and call/apply a HS rule … you’ll get eaten alive…those guys are on scholarship and coaches make their living just coaching at D2 and above.