PeteBooth

. There is NO way for the defense to be CERTAIN that the umpire saw the missed base. It's the old adage - "Never trust an umpire". It's akin to a close pitch on 3-2 - SWING as you never know if Blue will ring you up. From the OP In a nutshell R3 was a "dead duck" but F2 dropped the ball. If you were F5 you would most likely do the same thing. Yes the runner missed the base BUT if you ignore and continue the appeal and the umpire rules safe you have just given the offense a "cheapie" FWIW: That's where the NCAA / FED Appeal rule is much better. In NCAA and FED if the offense initates the action, the defense can still appeal. In FED the point is moot anyway because in FED, you can appeal during a dead ball. In OBR, if the manager KNOWS his runner missed the base, he will simply send the runner(s). Pete Booth

I recommend keeping a note-book. When I first stared I kept a note-book and included all the critiques that were given to me. When I got home I read them and then worked on my weak points. I divided the note-book into 3 sections. 1.Rules 2. Mechanics 3. Game Management Also, do not be afraid to ask questions during the clinic no matter how simple you think they are. The key is LEARNING and everyone learns at their own pace. Umpire as many games as your schedule permits. The more games you umpire the more comfortable you will feel. If that means volunteering at your local LL organization or other youth ball orhanization to get games in then so be it. The key is to UMPIRE. Good luck! Pete Booth

No ones bullying anybody but you took a thread that FIRST started at eteamz, then posted in on umpire.org and now here. Also, this is not the first time you took a thread from another Forum. If you have YOUR OWN ideas - great but many (not just me) post on other Forums and frankly your OP has been "beaten to death" so IMO no need to take a thread and post it EVERYWHERE. Manny at eteamz started the thread and there were MANY responses at that Forum. The same OP was then posted at umpire.org and again many many responses. If you think that is bullying then so be it. IMO, you received a plethora of responses at umpire.org. How many more responses do you want? I know the REAL answer and YES it's my fault. When you plagarize another OP someday I should simply ignore. My bad. Pete Booth

. If you are going to have time limit games then other rules need to be amended most notably visits to the mound. If the game is TIMED, then when ANY player / coach visits F1 = charged conference. That means if F2 requests and is granted time and he goes out and talks to F1 (about anything) = charged conference. The 20 second rule now becomes more then simply a nit-pick'n rule when the game is timed and strict adherence to this rule should be followed. Also, most umpires should be following this anyway but one minute between innings timed from the 3rd out (I realize this is a FED rule) but if the game is timed it should be adopted by other leagues as well. In other words, no-one bothers to amend the "other" rules when the games are timed and it makes our job as officials more difficult because let's face it we KNOW when a team is stalling BUT if they are within the rules there is nothing we can do about it. Pete Booth

. Warren, Mr. Umpire is now notorious for copying and pasting threads from different Forums. Mr Umpire copied this OP from eteamz where it started, posted it on Umpire.org and now here. I realize things are slow but this is becoming commonplace for Mr. Umpire. You are correct, this is a No brainer which both Brian and I pointed out to Mr. Umpire on the other Forum IMO, the reason he brings this OP "over here" is to try and get some viewers to support his interp which simply over-complicates the issue and IMO does more harm then good for new or first year umpires. FWIW: You can go to www.umpire.org to get Mr. Umpires views or take on this issue. It's under the rules section Pete Booth

. This is an officials Forum so I tend to side with the officials UNLESS I witness first hand. Here is what we do not know and a conversation, breif- conversation, started What was said in this "brief conversation"? Perhaps the referree gave the kid "a break during this brief conversation" and then the ref said "that's enough son" to which the player responded I'm not your son The player was now being a wise you know what and just added insult to injury. The referee allowed the player to have his say and then it's time to play ball. The player "kept it going" by saying I'm not your son. It's similar to the following Coach is questioning balls / strikes. The first one most of us "let go" but if it continues we say "skip that's enough" and NOW if the coach continues by saying something like "Pete you been missing them all day" or something along those lines then it's bye bye time otherwise you lose credibility. Once as an official you say "THAT'S ENOUGH" that's EXACTLY what it means otherwise do not say it at all. It means Coach I hear you but it is NOW time to play. In a nutshell we do not know what was said BUT the referee did allow the player to have a conversation. Therefore, it's difficult to say a T was or was NOT warrented. I tend to think it was because the player was being a wise you know what and IMO received what he had coming to him. Pete Booth

. From your OP This came up on another board. I simply posted the OP from another board. How is that hyjacking? You referred to another Board not me so I simply posted the OP that you referred to in your opening remarks so that others could see EXACTLY what you are referring to. Also, the age of the players DOES make a difference. Generally speaking when you are dealing with 11/12 yr. old baseball you will be working with less experience officials. Pete Booth

. IMO, if you are going to post another thread from another FORUM simply copy and paste it because you added things such as "assuming the pre-game was done properly" and you did not give the age of the players. here is the OP that's currently at umpire.org Now let the posters answers Pete Booth

) That is NOT an "old wives tale" A poster quoted the mechanic from the MLBUM and the PU is supposed to go to his partner RIGHT AWAY not wait to be asked by the manager. IMO< the important aspect of this thread is not about what the PU says meaning a simple "ball" or if the PU says "Ball he didn't go". IMO, that's irrelevant. What is relevant is the TIMING. Sitch: Count is 3-2. Ball is in dirt and B1 checks his swing and you say ball or "ball no he didn't go" (as mentioned IMO it doesn't matter) but you DO NOT check with your partner. In the mean-time B1 trots down to first base. The DM wants you to check with your partner. It's TOO LATE. Even if the BU reverses the call the runner is still safe at first base since he is standing there already. OR No DK3 involved. With 2 strikes B1 checks swing and umpire calls ball. Doesn't check with his partner. The DM requests and is granted TIME. The DM wants the PU to check with his partner. The PU is adament about it but after some time (approx 5 minutes just to get the DM off his back) he FINALLY decides to check with the BU. Again TOO late because the PU has now put his partner the BU in a precarious position and "hung him out to dry" if he wants to change the call. Bottom Line: On a questionable swing in which the PU calls ball check with your partner IMMEDIATELY. It takes all of 2 seconds and looks professional. As mentioned if the PU says Ball or Ball No he didn't go is irrelevant as long as the appeal to one's partner is done immediately. Pete Booth

? Whenever you have a question regarding positioning the REAL answer is: Check with your particular umpire association that you belong to. As you can see from the responses some associations want the BU in C and some want you in B . Each umpire association has their own nuances and as they say "in Rome do as the Romans do". FWIW the FED mechanic with R1/R3 is the B position. In addition what type of ball are you calling? RE: IMO it makes a big difference. If you are dealing with youth or low calibur ball ala LL Jr.'s or 13/14 yr. old rec ball and the like, it makes more sense to be in C because at that level they rarely if ever throw down to second if R1 steals (for fear of R3 scoring so you do not have to worry about the steal as much) and DP's are almost non existent (so you do not have to worry about the banger at first base). Also, in low calibur ball there is a greater chance of a play at third base (at low levels they play that "dancing" game) then you would see doing high calibur ball such as Legion . In Summary: Check with your umpire association. If you do not belong to one and are doing low type calibur ball then I recommend the C position. Pete Booth

If you DO NOT see the difference between your "change" of the situation to the OP, then you need to RE-READ the rules. Brian gave you the answer. In the OP you do not enforce the CO or CI in OBR because in effect it never happened. B1 did something illegal. If you stick to the rules you should not have a hard time getting the out. Pete Booth

FWIW I am getting tired of all this Jewlery nonsense and wish they would simply get rid of the rule. In legion baseball they can wear Jewlery so personally at least at the HS varsity level (many of these kids also play Legion) I see no reason to have a jewlery rule. Be that as it may, IMO the onus should be placed on the coaches ,meaning this checking the hats / bats issue jewlery etc. should be "on the coach" If we discover it the coach / player GO. If we discover an illegal bat - record the out and simply EJ. Ok rant over - If they have a bandaid - tell them too take it off and the jewlery underneath it. Issue the warning. As the FED rule states, if it happens again see ya Pete Booth

JM I bielieve the quote is referring to a play in which NO runner was retired. In the OP we had a runner who was retired. As I already quoted several times Rule 6.06 says if ANY runner is retired the play proceeds as if there was no interference. I E-mailed Rick and if he responds i will post his answer. If in fact answer B is correct then once again we have found another error in the OBR rule book. To me Rule 6.06 is SPECIFIC in it's wording. Pete Booth

Brian how are you grabbing the dirty end of the stick? Let's add a "twist" to the OP There are 2 outs in the OP Now F2 fires to second and gets R1 for out number 3. Now you say "wait a minute" play is dead and put runners back at 1st / 2nd. B1 proceeds to hit a dinger on the next pitch. Talk about getting the dirty end of the stick. Like I said if Rick answers me and I am wrong I am wrong (it will not be the first time) but I am going by the wording in OBR 6.06 which says that if F2 retires ANY runner play proceeds as if there was no interference. Pete Booth

Here is the Counter argument if F2 made the play then how was F2 interfered with in the first place. That's why the rule says if F2 retires ANY runner then the interference is ignored. I realize the answer posted for NCAA but according to the way the OBR rule is written (which I quoted above), whenever F2 retires ANY runner the interference is ignored. FED is different and in FED answer B is correct. Pete Booth

Mazz I agree for FED but NOT OBR or even NCAA if in fact NCAA follows the OBR rule because of the following: OBR 6.06 A batter is out for illegal action when— © He interferes with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter’s box or making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base. EXCEPTION: Batter is not out if ANY runner attempting to advance is put out, or if runner trying to score is called out for batter’s interference. Notice the phrase If ANY runner attempting to advance is put out. Hopefully Rick will respond but for now I am sticking with A. I agree B for FED. Pete Booth

Brian the OP Mazz did NOT say "what was the NCAA rule". if that's what the NCAA interpreter said then that is the RULE interp for NCAA. I was talking OBR and IMO Rick is as good as any as far as an authoritative source for OBR. I e-mailed Rick this EXACT OP to get his view. If in fact Rick responds to me I will post it. Remember as with many of these type OP's there is different interps depending upon which Rule Code you use. If Mazz had said NCAA rules and THEN posted his OP I most likely would not have answered since I do not umpire at the collegiate level other then a summer Collegiate Wood Bat League which uses OBR. The CBL league uses the NCAA Collision / Slide rules but everything else is OBR. Tonight after work I will look at the FED rule/case Book to see what the FED ruling would be. Pete Booth

Mazz the problem: F2 NEVER threw the ball in your example therefore, we have NO initial throw to begin with. IMO the answer comes down to this. Did F2 make a Play on R2? Simply faking a throw etc. according to JR is NOT considered a play. Perhaps F2 thought he had no chance of retiring R2 and changed his mind. Also, the ACTUAL wording of the rule says NOTHING about an INITIAL throw simply stated it says if F2 retires a runner then play proceeds wihout interference. FWIW I will ask Rick your sitch and if he responds I will post his answer. Pete Booth

I try and stay away from using finite words such as ALWAYS and NEVER but in a 5-4 game at least in HS or College a coach would NEVER pull his team unless there was some VERY UNUSUAL circumstances like the bug incident in Cleveland when Jobba was pitching. If an ejected coach tells his team "f it, let's go" and they go I am not going to stand there and say "hey skip you have no jursidiction etc. etc. so put your team back on the field" If the other coach lodges a protest accept the protest and move on but like I said in the "real world" this would NEVER happen. Pete Booth

I disagree with the aforementioned statement. From the OP His team is getting drilled. If he wants to pull his players - fine by me as in the scheme of things it's time to go anyway being down by 20 runs. Why add "insult to injury" This coach most likely had enough anyway. Pete Booth

The money I earn goes into new equipment / accessories for umpiring, and the rest is for myself or as with Warren savings because I use the money from umpiring on things such as gas/ going out to dinner etc. which normally would come from my "regular job" Also, I do not know about you but some of the money is "not really money" Ok what do I mean? Say you have a double dip starting at 4 - 4:30PM. You are done around 8-9 PM. Therefore, depending upon whom I am working with we go out afterwards have a bite to eat and some cold ones. Therefore the $50.00/ $60.00 that I earned in game one is basically a "done deal" Pete Booth

That's why you need a mercy rule. This game should have been LONG over. In a nine inning game it should be 10 runs after 7 or in this case 6 and 1/2 since the VT trailed. if the team was down 20 -0 in the 5th some leagues have a 15 run rule after 5 innings or something along those lines. In any event that's why these type leagues should have a mercy rule. As others mentioned this would not occur in college or even in FED because the coach has to answer to the AD. It's a typical summer league fiasco. If they do not have a mercy rule, then "check your calendar" and scratch this team or league from your schedule. Pete Booth

Since you are joining HS check with your association before you purchase any equipment. Normally, the umpire association you belong to dictates what type (color) shirts / pants / hats/ jackets you can wear. Hs has various divisions meaning the modified (mostly 7th/8th graders). Some school districts also have a Freshman program (9th graderes) and then JV and Varsity. If you are only going to do modified etc. you can purchase a starter package from Honings / Gerry Davis to name a few. Most have starter packages and they are not that expensive around the $200.00 or $250.00. range. As you advance then you can "add on" or improve your equipment. If money is not an issue then by all means get one of the top of the line CP's for maximum protection, mask and shin guards. Pete Booth

BT That's all well and good, HOWEVER, your assignor calls and says "BT I am in a bind I have a tournament this weekend and I do not have all the games covered can you help me out PLEASE" IMO, most umpires even if you reached your threshhold would say 'ok Next week comes and same thing. Therefore, IMO it's very difficult to say I am only going to do x amount of games and on these days only because inevitably you will find your self doing more games then expected. That's why I say you either Committ or simply do not do it. Pete Booth

Warren GOOD Topic and one in which I ponder each and every season I am 53 and plan on "calling it a day" when I am 55 Why! 1. Eventually we all will have to "call it a day" it's just a matter of when. I do not want someone telling me "Pete it's time to go" because my skills are diminishing etc. I want to go out on my own. We have had guys in our association that "in their day" were TOP officials but unfortunately did not know when to quit and had to be downgraded etc. Not a pretty sight. 2. I do not know about you but I want a full and relaxing summer. From the end of March until the end of July at least for me "it's nuts" busy almost every day. Legion starts around June 1st along with CBL (Collegiate Wood bat league) plus travel ball. It calms down a bit in August but then Fall ball "kicks in around the first week in September. Also, it's difficult to say "I'll cut down on my schedule" because inevitably your assignor will call and say "Pete I am in a bind can you do 2/3 for me today" or "Pete we have a tournament and I am short" etc. etc. Therefore, IMO you either Committ or don't do it at all 3. The game has changed and in IMO for the worse. "In my day" the umpires simply "umpired". If I got out of line etc. the coach would bench me. In other words the coach was the ONLY person who would speak to the officials no matter what the call was. Now-a-days coaches for the most part have no control over their players and then get OUTRAGED when you toss one. 4. All this safety bul****t that was NOT prevelant in my day. I played under the rules of the BIG BOYS. No FED in HS back then and we lived to play another day. Now you have lawsuit upon lawsuit. 5. Parents etc. Again a deterent in umpiring. The are my TOP 5 and as mentioned I have a goal as to when to call it a day - do you? Pete Booth