PeteBooth

. Make your life simple. Why does the IFR exist in the first place? Answer - so the defense cannot get a "cheap" DP. Do not worry so much about the height of the ball. We all know what a line drive or bunt is. Therefore, for the most part unless the ball meets those criteria we have for all practical purposes a fly ball. Now in LL majors the ball IMO has to be a "can of corn" meaning if you do not call the IF the defense will get an easy DP. In a nutshell remember why the IFR exists and that should answer most of your questions. Pete Booth

3.1.0 Umpire Will Permit "Neighborhood Play" to avoid Mayhem on the bases. Must be an old book at least for MLB where the "Neighborhood" has changed to a different location. Because of slo MO replay and IR the "neighborhood" at least in MLB is a thing of the past. FWIW I agree for amateur baseball. Pete Booth

Kyle the poster did his job. Our JOB is to officiate what is supposed to be a baseball GAME not a practice game. The score was 28-3 after 3 and ended up 39 to something. How is that a game? The coach was throwing ANYBODY. That is what practice is for. I disagree entirely with your premise. If you want to stay out there for 2.5 to 3 hours for a PRACTICE game that is your peragative not MINE. Since the poster is also the assignor - guess what? His pencil came out and this team is off HIS schedule and some other "poor sole" will get this game in the future. AMAZING! Pete Booth

). Brian IMO the important aspect of FED is that OBS is a violation of the rules and as such should be penalized. Let's take interference. When we rule interference we do not "wait and see" we simply call it an impose the penalty whether the fielder subsequently made the play or not. You call it silliness BUT F3 has NO business being in La/La land when he is not fielding or making a play. IMO, the important aspect of this OP is two-fold. 1. Was it OBS to begin with - Umpire judgement. If the BR bumps F3 and makes no attempt to go to second then No OBS because in effect the runner was not hindered in his attempt to reach the next base. That's where new umpires might "fall into a trap" Just becasue there is some contact doesn't mean we automatically call OBS. 2. If we do call OBS then in FED we KNOW that the runner gets a minimum of one base beyond the point of the OBS. I think most of us know when the Br is going to put on the "after-burners" and try for second base. Most of the time the runner makes the turn and heads back so even if there is some contact - no OBS. Pete Booth

. Brian OBR is the same on a pick-off play at first base. It's Type "A" OBS and the runner gets second base. Pete Booth

First things first - I understand it's a practice game but it is a GAME and the HC is throwing ANYBODY. Why schedule umpires in the first place. The HC did not treat this practice as a game. If he wants to DEVELOP some F1's then have his OWN practice and NOT schedule a game. Now after inning number 3 when the score is 28-3 I would have approached the HC and said something like "Skip it's time to call it a day" or something along those line. Now the VC is chirping about the zone. Welcome to the world of 12/U baseball where you have "Daddy" Coaches. The VC coach should KNOW the deal and tell his hitters to SWING when they come up with a score of 28-3. What he wants to score 40 runs against a team who has NO pitching. I realize it's a practice. Call Time and talk to the VC and ask him POINT BLANK - coach do you know the score? If he doesn't get it and the score is 28-3 and it's a practice = GAME over. FWIW: Be careful in excepting 12/U assignments because you get "Daddy coaches" and sometimes the 12/U group doesn't "get it" when we have a blow out. Also, for these divisions they should have mercy rules. Something like 20 runs after 2, 15 after 3, 10 after 4 and 8 after 5 or some combination there-of. The point is no sense continuing when a team is down by 15 -20 runs. Also, as you found out no need to officiate a 12/U practice game when it's obvious the HC is simply trying out other F1's. As mentioned he can do that on his "own time" not mine. Pete Booth

I am going to make the assumption (could be dangerous) that you played the game. Ever committ and error? If you let that error bother you it could effect you the rest of the game. We are human and are going to make mistakes no matter how good one is. Being an official is vastly different from being a particpant because NO-ONE is going to come out and say " that's ok Blue get the next one correct" That's why you have to develop different characteristics when being an official because when we "kick - one" we are ALL alone and are going to hear it (within the norm not when someone gets personal) When you kick one you simply have to forget it otherwise as you have expereinced the other parts of your game will be effected. It's early in the season and you WILL "kick" another one - it's called being human. As they say in Brooklyn NY - FORGET ABOUT IT and move on. I realize it eats at you but in between innings , get a drink take a deep breath and get ready for the rest of the game. The call you made is now HISTORY and there is nothing you can do about it except learn from it. That's the one aspect of being an official that one has to come to grips with. How do I handle when I kick one. It is tough but we have to get over it and move on. Pete Booth

My max is 16 games in one weekend. Friday - 5 Saturday - 6 Sunday - 5 It was a Memorial Day weekend tournament. Thank GOD it wasn't a very hot weekend and since it was a tournament there were time limits. I would not do that again. My limit now is 2 UNLESS there are time limits and then I will do 3. My days of doing 4/5 and 6 are OVER. After a while you are numb out there. You know where you should be but the body will not react. Also, once you get real tired it's very difficult to call a good game behind the dish. Pete Booth

First off there are no "FORMULAS" for EJ's. You said "over the course of the game" which to me means several times. Then you say these things started civil. When players are saying things about the ball and also saying things about the PU it's NOT civil no matter what the tone. It should have been dealt with the FIRST time the PU heard it. It's similar to the following: Me: I call the pitch a ball Coach: Pete where was that Me: Ignore Me: I call the pitch a ball Coach: Pete where was that Me: Skip we are not doing this all game long - end of discussion meaning I heard you but I will not take any more comments about my zone. When the PU heard the comments coming from the bench they should have been addressed "right there and then" See what happens when you "let things go" During the first half of the game the bench was saying things about the ball and the PU's strike zone and NOTHING was said. Now in the later innings it escalated. In summary: If the PU had taken care of business in the first half of the game for the most part there would not have been any problems during the last half of the game. That's how many of these "things" get started. What might seem innocent escalates into something ugly. Pete Booth

In HS and College it is no longer Normal as both FED / NCAA addresed this issue years ago. It is "normal" for youth ball because most youth organizations adopt OBR with modifications and do not EXPLICTILY address this issue. FWIW youth organizations should adopt FED/NCAA language concerning both the rules and safety regulations because many of these type questions are SPELLED out in both FED/NCAA but that's a different thread altogether. What to do It's simple: You do not allow the teammates to mob the plate in the firts place. As soon as you see them come out put a stop to it. Something like gentlemen I need to see the plate or something along those lines. I do not like "House Rules" but this would be a good "house rule" for a youth league to adopt. Pete Booth

. In OBR Type B does not turn into Type A. Why! Because under Type "A" in OBR the runner is AUTOMATICALLY awarded one base beyond his position when he was obstructed. Example: R1 in a pickel between 1st / 2nd. As R1 starts to advance towards second base he is obstructed by F4. The call is 1. TIME 2. That's OBS 3. R1 is awarded second base. Type B is different because in Type B OBS we award bases (IF ANY) that nullfiy the act of OBS. Example: R2 base hit to RF. R2 rounds third and is obstructed by F5. throw to the plate where R2 is tagged out on a close play or R2 is out by a mile In the former, R2 would most likely be awarded home. In the latter, the out call would stand because absent the OBS the runner was a "dead-duck" anyway. In OBR: Type B OBS is "killed" the moment we have a tag attempt on the runner per JR and the MLBUM and I believe Evans as well. In other words in OBR you do not wait untill ALL playing action ends as we do for FED / NCAA. When there is a tag attempt on the obstructed runner the play is dead at that point and we either make awards or let play stand. FED is different. In FED, the obstructed runner ALWAYS gets a minimum of one base beyond his position when he was obstructed. Therefore, in FED if R3 is obstructed rounding third base even if he is thrown out by a mile he still is awarded home. Also, in FED we wait until ALL action ceases. Use my original sitch. F2 applys a tag on R2 coming home BUT the BR trys for second base so F2 after tagging R2 throws to second base to get the BR. In FED we let it "play out" and then make the awards. In other words R2 scores because he was obstructed AFTER third base and whatever happens at second base stands. Pete Booth

. I agree 2 outs BUT: Suppose at this point the umpire DID not declare the IF because F6 was playing in BUT as you say he had to go to DEEP short to catch it. It could be a windy day etc. OR the catch is NOT ordinary. Therefore, at the moment R2 interferes with F6 the IF was NOT yet determined. I have 1. TIME 2. That's interference 3. R2 is out 4. Other runners return to their TOP bases or in FED TOI bases. End result 1 OUT not 2. If it's a no brainer pop-up then the IF is automatic BUT when you a fielder that has to retreat etc. IMO, it is NOT an ordinary catch at that precise moment and if the runner interferes we have 1 out NOT 2. Pete Booth

. Why should the thread be closed? Did we reach the time limit? (Sorry guys couldn't resist) I thought I had one more paragraph of air time. FWIW: If you think this thread is bad you have NOT seen anything. Just visit some of the other sites. There were differences of opinions that were shared and yes the topic might have been "beaten to death" but in general ALL Forums are relatively slow and less face it you can only talk about the concept of "last time by" for so long. Discussion are ok that's why this part of the Forum is called Free for All. Pete Booth

. Since we are talking rules let's stick to them OBR 8.03 F1 gets 8 warm-up throws NOT to exceeed 1 minute. Therefore, techically speeking if we have a rule that says no NEW inning shall start after 1:50 and we complete 6 innings in 1:49 then BY rule the game ends because the top of 7 will not start until at least 1:50 or better and according to RULE we do not START a new inning when we reach 1:50 FED has a rule that says one minute timed from the third out. In a nusthell the new inning TECHNICALLY starts when the offense comes to bat. We do not "STOP THE CLOCK" for down-time. In other words according to your way of thinking Whenever a coach requests time to talk to F1 we should STOP the CLOCK or whenever he changes F1's or F2 the clock should stop. When you have 1 minute left after say 6 complete innings the game is OVER because by RULE the team has one minute to complete their warm-up throws and by the time the offense comes to bat we would have reached the time limit. Pete Booth

Hi all: The time limit OP prompted me for this post which will most likely generate some heated discussion. An answer from one of the posters in the Time limit thread The aforementioned statement is the LL or youth ball mentality. I am not there for the kids. I am there to make certain no team gains an unfair advantage over another not intended by the rules Plain and Simple. If you examine the answers in the Time limit thread I would venture to guess that those that said it doesn't matter if there are 5 seconds left we start an inning are LL umpires or youth ball umpires where the saying "We are there for the kids" is more prevalent. Another support for my reasoning is that posters called me a liar, wanting to go home early etc.etc. because in their view I am cheating the kids. Notice the common denominator KIDS I am NOT speaking for Warren but from his response he like me treats umpiring as a business. Another poster used basketball / football as a reference. IMO, bad reference and a horse of a different color. When there is 5 seconds left in either basketball / football other then over-time there is going to be ONE more play PERIOD. Not in baseball That 5 seconds can turn into 1/2 hour or even more so as mentioned using a basketball / football anology is absurd. I see the DIFFERENCE when we get new umpires in our HS association that were strictly youth ball/ LL umpires and you have to break those habits. The coaches look at these new umpires with that "are you kidding look" Case and Point: During our first HS association meeting, one of the comments from the Modified / JV divisions were that these new umpires had postage stamp strike zones. At the modified level they expect the zone to be expanded. These new umpires feel that if they expand the zone etc. they are "cheating" the kids" but again that is the LL mentality that needs to be changed. AS you grow into umpiring you will learn that the book strike zone is simply a reference point and the ACTUAL definition of the strike zone is that which is accepted in the leagues we service. A HS Varsity Strike zone is NOT the same as the modified strike zone played by 7th/8th graders. That's where the business aspect of umpiring comes in. Our CUSTOMERS pay for our services and if such and such a league wants an expaned zone etc. then we oblige. IMO, that concept is the hardest for LL or youth umpires to break. Also, regardless of what you think, a TD running a tournament does NOT expect an umpire to start an inning with 5 seconds left? Why! If affects his business. As I mentioned in a response on the time limit thread. you have teams that have the last game of the day and you want them to have at least 2 hours to play. If games get backed up they will only get 3/4 innings in. THAT effects the business because next time this particular TD runs a tournament he might lose CUSTOMERS. In a nusthell on many of these difference of opinions would stem from the LL mentality vs. the business mentality. Ok let me have it. Pete Booth

? When you make statements such as Lie/ Go home early IMO you do not deserve a response so as previously mentioned for me time to move on. FWIW: You are lucky that you are not at the official Forum or umpire.org where you would be blasted and eventually the thread closed. Pete Booth

Then you say You are "barking up the wrong tree" It's NOT dishonest or bending the rules. EACH team received an equal number of at bats. let me ask you something? You are umpiring a game and in inning one you notice that F1 is going to his mouth while on the pitcher's plate and not wiping it off. Do you 1. Enforce OR 2. Call Time and tell F2 to tell F1 to make certain that after he goes to his mouth he wipes it off or as BU get F1's attention and tell him the 'deal" Most umpires I KNOW would do preventative umpiring and NOT call this type of infraction UNLESS it's repeated. According to you that's being dishonest and bending the rules. hate to break it to you but it's called GOOD UMPIRING As mentioned umpire "with the book" NOT by the book. No one is short changing 2 teams. Short -changing would mean one team got 6 at bats and the other team only 5. In the examples Warren and I gave each team had an equal chance. FWIW if you want posters to be cordial to you I STRONGLY recommend you stay away from calling people dishonest. Stick to the topic and make your viewpoints. Ok time to move on Pete Booth

. As Warren and I stated we have been doing this for a LONG time and I have NEVER had a problem ESPECIALLY with the score you posted 11-2. As mentioned this OP boils down to each his / her own. Pete Booth

? No umpire worth their "wait in salt" would say that to a coach. The answer - Skip we reached the time limit - End of story. NOTHING to protest. I guess we come from different parts because no coach (no matter how competetive he/she was) ever said to me "Pete we have 30 seconds left let's go" They pretty much KNOW that we will NOT start an inning with a minute or less remaining and guess what it works the SAME for all teams. Pete Booth

. We can go on and on with this discussion so as they say to each his/her own, however, your statement don't do (IMHO) is cut Team A's game short so you can play Team B's game. could be a catch 22. As stated what about team Z's game - the last game of the day and they get to play maybe 3-4 innings (darkness issue) because games were backed up. How is that fair? Since these teams only played 3/4 innings there is good chance they will NOT make it to the playoff round because THEIR game was cut short. That's the world of tournaments. Life is NOT fair BUT you do the best you can with the parameters given. As been often quoted by many a knowledgeable umpire you umpire "with the book" not "by the book". Also, let's get REAL. If we are down to a minute or so left umpires will not have to "shave the clock" to use another poster's expression. The winning coach will do that for us. There is no rule against him requesting TIME to talk to his F1 or changing F1 for that matter, or requesting TIME to change F2 which will "eat-up" the one minute or so left on the clock anyway. When he changes F1's the new F1 gets 8 warm-up tosses. As long as each team gets an equal number of at bats then IMO the game is FAIR and no one is getting cheated. Pete Booth

First things first IMO, dusting the plate off with only a minute or seconds remaining is NOT "shaving the clock" You are correct the teams pay for 1:40 NOT 2 hours and 15 minutes or later. If you expected me to start an inning with a minute or less remaining and said we do not need your services - my answer - thank You I have plenty of work. Also, you are forgetting one MAJOR factor the games will get backed-up BIG TIME and the teams that are waiting to play will start complaining. hey to each his own. FWIW I have been umpiring timed games for a long time and I NEVER started a 1/2 inning with seconds remaining and NEVER heard a peep from anybody. As mentioned if we have 5 minutes left is one thing but 1 minute or less - Time to go Pete Booth

Then why have time limits to begin with. This has NOTHING to do with following the effin rules. I gave Kyle a good example Tournament time - Field with no lights 1st game scheduled for 8AM Next game 10:15 AM so on and so forth with the last game scheduled for 6:00 PM (which allows for some delays) Game 1 - we are at the end of 6 with HT ahead 9-8 and there is 5 seconds left. According to many - Play on We start the top of seven and the VT takes the lead 12-9 Now HT needs to bat This half inning could be 1/2/3 or it could be 1/2 hour or so. Game 2 instead of starting at 10:15 now starts at 10:45 or later Now everything is backed-up The game that should have started at 6 PM now starts at 7 PM because of all the delays. How is that fair to the teams that have the last game of the day? Just like administering the rules of baseball we need to KNOW the history / intent of the rule to properly enforce. Umpires in a timed game should NOT be expected to start a BRAND new inning with a minute or less remaining. Pete Booth

? Kyle the aforementioned is the LL mentality. I still can't believe that some think 5 seconds / 5 minutes equate to one another. It takes longer then 5 seconds to change sides. Also, your anlogy Why not just ring a kid up on a pitch that bounces before the plate, while you're at it is simply absurd. I am with Warren. In the examples we gave EACH team had an EQUAL number of at bats so how is that "cheating" the particpants. Also, at the BEGINNING of the game BOTH teams KNOW that the game is timed and therefore, coaching strategies change. "small ball" comes into play etc. You do not LIKE timed games and that's fine, HOWEVER there is a reason that games are timed, most notably tournaments where they do not have lights or there is a scarsity of fields. If there is a minute or LESS left = game over and that is NOT cheating it's called GOOD game mangement skills because there are games back to back to back. Since you are talking about the kids what about the kids who have the last game of the day and they get to play ONLY 3 innings because you started an inning with only seconds remaining when you should have stopped the game and now the next games got backed up BIG TIME. What about them? Do not tell me they can pick up tomorrow because there is NO tomorrow in a tournament. In a tournament if all you got in was 3 innings then 3 innings it is and we play on. Bottom line: There is a reason for Time limits and that reason was NOT to start a new inning with a minute or less remaining. Use COMMON sense. Pete Booth

All I can sow is WOW. Here is what I do on time limit games. The BU keeps track of the time. When I have the dish I do not wear a watch. Let's say we are in the bottom of 6 and the time is that close, my partner is in contact with me meaning we only have a minute or less left. We are NOT starting the top of the inning. I can dust the plate off or something like that to "kill" a minute or less. It makes no sense because as mentioned once you start an inning you have to finish the inning. IMO, I am not cheating anybody. Both teams had an equal number of at bats in this case 18 outs so it's fair. OK one might say what's the difference between 5 minutes and 5 seconds. IMO, a BIG difference. In a timed game the teams are hustling so you are ready to go with at least 4 minutes left. You can get 3 outs in 4/5 minutes even if there is a hit or 2. If the HT is ahead no need to play the bottom. Yes the game is delayed a bit if we have to play the bottom half of the inning but there is nothing we can do about that. The point is 5 minutes is a HUGE difference then 1 minute or seconds remaining. NOTE: When games are TIMED, coaching needs to change. You see more "small ball" during tournament games because runs are precious. That's the nature of time limit games. NOT necessarily true in tournament games where they have run differentials etc. That's why IMO you need to be consistent. It's the drawback of torunament / TIMED games BUT it's equal because ultimately each team bats the same. I look at time limits in a similar manner to darkness. For the most part we KNOW when it gets dark and when we get to a point in a game that has SOME light left but unless you have a 1,2,3 an out, the game will not be completed. Rather then have a sh******m, we simply stop. As mentioned simply amazing. Pete Booth

: Not only does the winning coach and players don't like it - what about your partner? if it was me I would be upset and frankly if that's how you conduct your games I would not work with you. Nothing about your umpire ability but your game management decisions. It's one thing if we have 5 MINUTES left on the clock. It's quite another when we are talking SECONDS. Remember if it's the top half of the inning and it's started, then you must complete the last half of the inning. If it's only seconds remaining it makes absolutely NO SENSE to start the inning in the first place otherwise why have a time limit. IMO, this is an association decision that should be followed unilaterally by ALL umpires. Also, the last game even though you have lights should be treated like the first or second game. You cannot have coaches "making deals" and that's what you are doing when you say "if both coaches agree" we wave the time limit. I like drop dead time limits because it "forces" teams to hustle and less headaches about when the game ends, however, most time limit games are in the 2 hour range with no new inning shall start at 1:45 or 1:50 There is no reason a 7 inning game (other then extra innings) can not be completed in time if the kids are hustling, F1 around the plate and the players make the plays they should. Now, if you have teams that cannot play that is a "horse of a different color" In conclusion time limts are useful because of scarsity of fields and during tournaments where there are many games. FWIW starting a game with seconds remaining is simply absurd and for what purpose. All you do is make it tough on the next crew and the teams that are waiting to play because everything is now backed-up BIG TIME. Pete Booth