PeteBooth

We now know you are 17. For the most part coaches will try to intimidate younger umpires thinking they can get away "with murder" You now have to "show them" this is NOT the case. The FIRST time simply ignore. If it keeps up then you put a stop to it. NOTE: You have another thread about a bad partner and now this one. BOTH dealing with 9/10U At this age group unfortunately you will be dealing with "Daddy" coaches and "Daddy" coaches are an altogether different "breed" meaning you do not deal with a 'Daddy" coach the same way you would deal with say a HS Varsity coach. For the most part (not all the time) the Varsity coach KNOWS when it's time to keep quiet. Not true with "Daddy" coaches. "Daddy" coaches are like the energizer bunny. They keep going, going so you have to have a "tighter rain" with a "Daddy" coach then you would with a more experienced/seasoned coach. You put a STOP to the aforementioned RIGHT AWAY. Do not use threatening words as that can "box you in" but a Stern THAT'S ENOUGH COACH. If continued then you dump. In Summary: at the 9/10/11 yr. old age brackets unfortunately you have to deal with daddy Coaches. Also, you are only 17 so as mentioned they "think" they can get away with more. You have to show them that age doesn't matter and YOU are in control of the game. If they question your integrity it's time to STOP them in "their tracks" and if continued it's EJ time. Hopefully this league you umpire in has some form of desciplinary action for coaches / players that get dumped. If there is no desciplinary action it's time to look for another league. Pete Booth

What kind of association do you work for? You should KNOW if you are solo or not as it should be listed on the schedule. Now I have been told by my assignor that I will be working solo UNLESS he can get somebody but the point was - Don't count on it. Also, this is 9U so who cares Then why take the game in the first place. No sympathy here. This one's on you for taking the game in the first place. So what! As mentioned this is 9U. Ok his mechanics were horrible. All in all your OP is NOT about a bad partner. It's about a partner with bad mechanics. A "BAD" partner is one who makes calls that do NOT belong to him, over-turns a call you made with NO reason to, etc. etc. This is a 9U game and at that level you get what you get. You asked for advice, Since you were bored - DO NOT UMPIRE the rug rat level. Pete Booth

Thanks Warren for putting in a War Stories Forum. IMO, it should be a good place for all of us to share our "escapades" of umpiring. The forecast for this coming 4th of July weekend in NY calls for very hot and humid weather which brings me to my first War Story thread. I was assigned a LL BIG LEAGUE double dip (not uncommon for BIG LEAGUE) starting at around noon time where the temps were already in the low 90's and rising. The game went well and was finished in under 2 hours. One team only had 9 players for game number 2. The 10th player (from game 1) left and on his way out told his teammates that he was going to a pool party where there were plenty of girls. After my partner and I "switched places" I had the dish for the first game and the bases for the second game, I noticed a very sad and distrought look on the face of one of the players whose team only had nine. I asked the player - "what's up why so gloom". He said "Blue my teammates and I went to the coach and asked him to forget about game number 2. We told him it's very hot and humid and we want to go to the pool party. The coach told us no." Most likely the coach wanted to get his monies worth as he already paid for 2 game Fees. . He then asked "Blue is there anyway you can help us out" I said sure. I then said to the player you know you need 9 players to start and finish the game (LL BIG LEAGUE plays by OBR so you need 9 to finish unlike HS ball where you can finish with 8) and the "light-bulb" went off. Wouldn't you know it. The player who I conversed with was the lead-off batter (top of one) in game number 2. He hit a ground ball to F6 who threw him out easily BUT the player went "pretend nuts" and said "Blue that was the worst f*****g call that I ever saw etc. etc. I called Time pointed to the player and said Number 23 is done for the day. The team was now down to 8 players and the game was over. As the player walked by He said: "No offense blue" to which I replied "none taken". He also said "thank you for helping us out and we are on our way to the pool party." The coach was upset but as the title of my War Story reads - easy pay-day. 2 game fees for 7 innings work in under 2 hours. Not bad. Pete Booth

I was responding to the following comment It's obvious from the OP that the BR did NOT hesitate and went right onto second base. That's why we do not call TIME right away when F2 requests it UNTIL the BR reaches and is STATIONARY at first base. We NEVER know when the offense has a play on ESPECIALLY at the 15/U age group. In general, DO NOT Clean the plate during UNRELAXED action. Cleaning the plate takes all of maybe 30 seconds therefore I totally disagree with the aforementioned statement. Cleaning the Plate does NOT delay the game UNLESS you want to make the plate like NEW. Pete Booth

At that particular time there was NO reason for you to clean the plate. After the BR walked wait and see what happens. Until we have the next batter up and F1 ready to pitch there is NO need to clean the plate yet. That falls under game management. I am with Jim and Carolina. If possible wait for a dead ball situation and then clean the plate. Also, you have to have a "feel" for the game. If one team is aggressive on the bases, then make certain play is ACTUALLY stopped before you clean the plate. Also, as Jim said pay attention to R3 before you clean the plate. REMEMBER: EVERYTIME you call TIME, the ball MUST be made live again. Some umpires do not put the ball back into play and that can make for a mess. NOTE: if you are solo, I would call TIME when dusting off the plate (with runenrs on) because you have no partner to help you and your back is turned away from the action. Pete Booth

Depends upon the number of outs and level of ball. With 2 outs and R3 I doubt F1 or F2 will "risk" a pickoff play unless it's a "no brainer". With 2 outs the Play will be at first base so IMO, with R3 only and 2 outs it makes more sence to be in B then C. With less then 2 outs anything is possible. You could have a squeeze and B1 misses the sign and now R3 is a dead duck. etc. Pete Booth

I do not understand. If you saw the ball come out how could you NOT see it hit the ground unless F1 hit the ground in an upright position and the ball came out but landed right on top of her or something like that, however, if she fell forward and you saw the ball come out chances are it hit the ground. You asked what should I have done. I do not know what kind of mechanics you are using BUT you could have taken a quick look at your partner BEFORE making the catch / no catch call. Since your partner said the ball was CLEARLY not caught he would have given you a quick no-catch signal and then you rule accordingly. Why did you call R3 out originally? Remember the player can tag up as soon as the ball is TOUCHED not caught. Therefore, did you "line-up" the catch / no catch with R3 in mind? As soon as F1 touched the ball if R3 was on the bag she can now legally score. As far as the BR goes that is a HTBT situation. You called Catch so chances are the BR "gave-up" and went back to the dugout. The question to be answered is this: If you didn't kick the call would the BR had made it to first base safely? In Summary: There are certain times you can "use your partner" before making the call. Take a quick glance to see if your partner can help. If NOT then make the call based upon the most likely outcome or Evidence presented to you. Also, examine why you kicked the call to begin with so that you are better prepared next time it happens. Players catching the ball and falling down happens freqently. Pete Booth

We are talking about EXTREME cases here. If a fan gets mad so what i could care less. We are talking about a situation where the fans behavior is making it almost impossible to play the game. We could have fans threatening an umpire or causing all kinds of comotion which DO effect the game. I agree in your average run of the mill game where fans get upset who cares BUT once they become unruly the game can turn ugly in a heartbeat. If the fan cannot control their behavior then they should NOT be allowed to come to the game. FWIW: I worked in a league that had a ZERO tolerance policy and I mean ZERO tolerance. The league "cleaned-up" all the loud mouth fans by simply banning them. The umpires had the FULL cooperation and support of the League Pres. What a pleasure to work in this league. Also, this league had NO problem getting umpires. Pete Booth

Stan all I can say is WOW! I have heard of some strange house rules but the ones you posted above "take the cake" You said "young umpire" Perhaps this league simply gets young umpires (let's say 14/15/16) and they have little or no training what-so-ever hence the "house rules" Also, they get one umpire and have one of the coaches do the bases - bad idea. As you say - Stay away from this league. Tell this young umpire to get some training and join an umpire association that has "good ball" so that he can learn and move-up. This league is not worth the headache. Here is what this league should do. 1. No Umpires needed 2. Cement a lawn chair or something equivalent behind the plate. If the ball hits the chair it's a strike. If it misses it's a ball. Plain and simple Let them yell at the chair. 3. For those plays that are close, adopt the NCAA basketball alternate possession rule, meaning if there is a close play Team A gets the decision. The next time it goes to team B and so on and so forth. 4. OBS / Interference are ignored. 5. If the game ends on a close call - Flip a coin to determine the winner. Pete Booth

Your are MISSING the point. Umpires DO NOT have authority to toss parents. In "theory" I agree with you. There should be a league administrator present who handles crowd control, BUT this is the REAL world and this is not always the case. You said your job is to WIN the game. Guess what! These idiot parents (unless you take care of it) can cost you a ball game and that ball game might mean the difference of YOUR team getting into the play-offs or advancing during a tournament. It's like this: 7 inning game and you are HT. We are in the bottom of 5, VT up 5-4. There is a play at the plate where your RUNNER is called out (the 3rd out) for an illegal slide. The FANS go "nuts" and are becoming uncontrollable. Since you said it's NOT your job to control YOUR fans here is what happens. UIC of game to both managers - This game is OVER. Now the "fate" of the game is in the hands of the league administrators. We have an official game (5 complete innings) and we also have a potential winner meaning VT ahead 5-4 after 5 complete. It's my feeling depending upon scheduling etc. that the game will become offiical because it was YOUR fans who caused the comotion. As mentioned above, this game could cost you a playoff spot or further advancement in tournament play. The bottom line is that Officials do not "get into it" with fans. if it's a HS game and the AD is present We ask the AD to handle. if the AD is NOT there we ask the HC to handle. If no-one handles, the game is stopped and the league administrators will decide if the game is to be resumed or not. Pete Booth

I always used my name. In the beginning I thought that posters who did not SIGN their name were cowards and therefore, I took less credence in what they had to say. Known posters such as Carl Childress used their REAL name and as mentioned IMO added credence to what they had to say. Rob Drake a MLB professional umpire used his REAL name on his site (It has since been shut down because MLB told him to) I later found out that some used acronyms or nicknames to protect themselves and therefore, I now do not have a problem with posters using acronyms / nicknames instead of their REAL name. To each his own. Besides I am sure Others already have a nickname for me anyway. Pete the REAL me Booth

Rich we are talking VERY LOUD behavior. After a bad call is made and you hear "Hey Blue get your head out of your a**" or blue your fu****g horrible and it did not come from your bench you KNOW where it came from. Yes I coached and whenever the umpire asked me "Pete what's the deal with that "person" I KNEW who said person was. A coach can tell because most likely this "loud mouth" fan also gives the coach a hard time as well when it comes to playing time for their son/daughter. I agree during a play etc. a coach will not know what the fans are doing BUT after the play when things are a bit quiet and then you hear what I quoted above IMO, the coach SHOULD have a clue who it was. Like I said at least in my experiences the coaches KNOW who the loud mouths are. Pete Booth

Yes you do. From my experience the coaches KNOW who the "loud mouths" are. At the beginning of the season the manager or coach should have a meeting with the parents - make it mandatory. Explain to them that rude behavior will NOT be tolerated. Explain to them that if the game is stopped it has the potential of costing OUR team a game. I realize this is a free country and you cannot STOP anyone (other than for legal reasons) from coming to the game BUT you can get your point across at the beginning of the season. You are mistaken. Umpires do NOT have authority to deal with fans. In extreme cases we call the police. We can STOP the game BUT we do not EJ Fans or engage in fans. If you constantly have "loud mouth" fans at your games it most likely will cost you a game. Your team depending upon the severity of the fan behavior could also face suspension. You will have to look elsewhere for umpires because as word "gets around" umpire associations will NOT service you OR if they do service you, you will get the umpiring crew (and all associations have them) that are strictly there for the money, Smitty Type and couldn't care less what you do as long as they get paid. This type of umpiring crew would stop the game in a "heartbeat" and get an easy pay-day. In summary: As a coach you SHOULD have some control over YOUR fans. Unfortunately if one fan cannot control themselves the kid will suffer because you will have no other recourse then to cut him. Pete Booth

IMO, the reason you missed the tag has NOTHING to do with being in the B or C position but the ANGLE you had. From your OP you had a bad angle hence you missed the tag in the first place. Even in B if you do not move FORWARD first to get the angle you will miss the tag. As others mentioned position yourself where your association wants you to be, however, you must also get the proper angle no matter if you are in B or C. Pete Booth

Enough said. It's amazing how many of these type stories we hear and most of them have the same "common denominator" - "kiddie ball" Pete Booth

Brian in general I agree with you BUT through my experiences (and most likely yours as well) the following occurs: 1. Coaches coach 2. Players Play 3. Umpires officiate AND 4. Fans are Fans (even officials who go to games as a Spectator or Fan) Jboval (IMO should know better) was simply "acting his part" meaning he was a FAN at this game and "took off his official hat". . FWIW: If it were me or you we wouldn't have given Jboval (no matter how cordial) the "time of day" when he started in about our partner. Also, Jboval's post is from a FANS perspective and therefore, needs to be taken "with a grain of salt". It's my gut that we would get a different story from the officials of that game. I am not saying that the BU followed proper mechanics BUT we were not there. I know I am repetitive but that's why I say Stay away from "kiddie ball" It's not because I feel that type of ball is beneath me etc. BUT these types of OP's and responses such as Jboval are all too common when it comes to 9/10 yr. old baseball. Also, for the most part it's not the kids fault it's the ADULTS that make the experience miserable for some of these kids. As I mentioned in a previous response, NO fan should be allowed any where near the umpires. There should be a TARP etc. so that people cannot see the plate area NOR be able to approach the PU as Jboval did. The BU other then getting a drink should head out to RF after each inning so he is away from the parents / fans. Pete Booth

Warren I agree with Rich ( a rarity - Just kidding Rich) , in that you do not toss the assistant because of a fan. if the Fan is THAT bad, simply stop the game. If someone is "right there" and can get rid of the fan continue. otherwise stop the game. Write-up a report to my assignor telling him what happened and off I go. FWIW: Get paid at the BEGINNING of the game during the plate conference. No pay No play. Pete Booth

Generally speaking Stay away from Rec ball ESPECIALLY the "rug rat" type of ball where your OP is all too common. Warren could add a new Forum called WAR STORIES and most of us have them when it comes to "kiddie Rec ball" which is for the most part the worst ball you will call. IMO, EVERY complex should have a green shading, Tarp or what have you covering the OUTSIDE of the home plate area, so that NO-ONE can see INSIDE where the plate is. Also, NO-ONE should be allowed around the plate area as well. Rope it off or something along those lines. That would help somewhat, BUT when it comes to "rug-rat" rec ball you will HEAR the boo birds. That's why in general these type leagues have difficulty getting umpires. Other then a RIPKEN and the like events we do NOT service these low level rec leagues anymore where there is an overall lack of discipline. As others mentioned it's not a good idea to engage fans because you never know when they will become unruly. It's best to go to the coach and let him handle. Pete Booth

Other then a player committing a malicous act upon another IMO, there is NO automatic EJ. What I mean by that is we ALL have our own threshholds and game management techniques in dealing with situations. In addition to what Warren said "That's enough" I have also said to a coach "Skip do we have a substitution"? meaning I heard the F Bomb BUT give me a sub or the player is done for the day. It saves a one game suspension and I have had success with this approach. There is also an unpopular tool now-a-days called "sending a message" to the player. In this instance the batter was already out BUT come his next time up he better be swinging if you know what I mean. My main point is: When it comes to EJ's other then a player maliciously contacting another, there is NO automatic EJ. That is left up to each official. That's why we do not get into "our partners business" meaning EJ for him. Allow your partner to handle the situation "his" way UNLESS it gets REAL REAL ugly. I have no problem with what you did as that is your style but there are other ways to deal with the situation and those other ways are not right or wrong it's just a matter of style. Pete Booth

You are NOT the coach and what is OBVIOUS to you might not be to the team appealing. IMO, if you continue on "this path" eventually you will get "burned" It's no biggie and takes all of 30 seconds. Mngr: "Pete the runner missed third" Me: "Rich which runner " Rich: "Pete Number 23 " Me: "Rich there is no number 23 on the other team" (just kidding) "He's out / safe " Like I said all of 30 seconds and it avoids possible confusion. Pete Booth

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You have received some good advice BUT the Pre-game assumes ( I know we are not supposed to assume) that both of you are on the "same page" The same page means that there are certain "givens" you MUST know whether you have a pre-game or not. Here are some examples (BIG diamond) 1. Your partner MUST know what the A / B and C positions are in the first place. He MUST also know when he should be in the A / B or C position as well. 2. The "V" - When you say to your partner you have a catch / no catch responsibilities in the "V". Your partner MUST know what the "V" is. Therefore, if your partner gives you the deer in the headlights look when you metnion the "V" , you might as well stop there because nothing else you say will make sence. 3. When does BU go out when in A? Your partner should KNOW this. If you go to clinics there is a list of when the BU is to go out. What you do not want is a sinking line drive in RF and your partner comes in and then you as PU have to "guess" whether it's a catch or no catch ESPECIALLY on those drizzly type nights or foggy nights when it's difficult to see. OR your partner goes out and doesn't stay out and then he makes a different call then you on a play at second base when that is YOUR call. Generally speaking when you are doing 60ft. diamond ball or low level big diamond ball you are NOT working with guys/gals who have very much training. You do not have a "thesis" when going over pre-game responsibilities. What you want to cover are those EXCEPTIONS to the rule so that you know what your partner will do. Example: Generally speaking the PU has the catch / no catch down the lines and also the tag up of R3, however, if it's troubled ball down the RF line in that instance you might want to check with your partner in Pre-game to see if he will take the tag-up at third base. There are others. In other words in my pre-game with another Certified official I go over the troubled areas. I am assuming he knows what the basics are. There has to be a set of standards that all partners should know. You do not have time to go over EVERYTHING. When you do have a pre-game and get that deer in the headlights look you are in trouble because it's apparent that your partner has NO clue on where he should be or what to do. If that happens tell the BU to do the following: 1. In A DO NOT go out. I have EVERYTHING 2. When in B or C you have the catches from LC to RC. I have the lines. 3. I have the FIRST touch at third base. You have ANY runner following. 4. If there is a SECOND play in the infield I have the runner at third base. (I know current mechanics say the BU has BOTH plays) In other words keep it as simple as possible. if your partner does NOT know what the A B or C positions are, you might as well tell him to go home and do the game solo. I recommend joining an association that puts on clincis etc. so that when you are assigned a partner, your partner has "some clue" on what to do. In your situation it appears that the Pre-game wouldn't help since as you say you got the deer in the headlights look. Pete Booth

Just wondered what others think. The Neighborhood Play and Phantom Tag has been around and accepted in baseball for approximately 100 years or so UNTIL the advent of Replay. It's a safety factor. There was also an old adage when you are OUT you are OUT. It works the same way for both teams so no one is getting "hosed" In general terms, on a force play in which the runner is out by a good margin, throw "right on" as long as F4/F6 is in near vicintity of the bag = OUT. Phantom Tag - Throw "right on" Glove where it should be = OUT whether a tag was actually applied or not. The aforementioned concepts were around "forever' until as mentioned the advent of Super SLO MO replay. Now the Neighborhood Play / phantom tag are things of the past and one of these years a Star player will be lost and then the critics will say "How come the umpire did not give him the neighborhood. IMO, The Phantom Tag / Neighborhood exist in most amateur leagues. When TV is involved (ala MLB and the NCAA WS) then they are "out the window" For the ball I call I still subscribe to those "back in the day" calls that we all grew up with. Pete Booth

This is difficult to "pick one" because during Tournaments we are REQUIRED to keep track of the score and also innings pitched. Normally the BU will carry a score-card and keep track of the score and the innings pitched by F1. because there is an innings pitch rule in some tournaments that we do. There is also the Mercy rule so I want to KNOW when that is reached so I can stop the game. War Story: I was umpiring a mens game (which has a mercy rule of 10 runs after 5 or 4.5 innings) This one particular team was going to reach the 10th run (They were the HT in bottom of 5) but they wanted to continue playing. They had a man on third and a player hit a shot about 350- 400 ft to CF. My Grandmother could have walked home. The 3B coach told R3 to stay put. I looked at my partner and we both nodded. As soon as the next batter stepped in and we were ready to play BOTH of us Unamiously said THAT'S A BALK and we scored R3 and went home. It's one thing if the game dictates that we stay it's quite another when teams play games. That's why I want to KNOW when the Mercy rule is reached. In general terms keeping score is NOT our job. We have enough to do, however, I think most of us KNOW what the score is. Pete Booth

As Stan says we all have "this guy" My question to you is Why keep asking him for help on a check swing after the first one? When we work with partners like this unfortunately we have to adjust. I had a similar incident. It was the first inning and I went to my partner on a check swing. He didn't even acknowledge it. I finally said Joe did he go and he simply shrugged his shoulders. No safe call or No he didn't go, just a shrug of the shoulders like I don't know. The batter turned around (in a very nice way) and said "Blue going to be a long game " and I had to call Time (I didn't want to show up my partner) so I could turn around, hide my face in my mask and laugh. From then on I didn't check with him the remainder of the game NOR did the coaches ask me to check with him because they saw what happend the first time. Hopefully you do not have many assignments with "this guy" When you do rather then get "bent out of shape" adjust somewhat, get through the game best as you can an move on. If you are a frequent partner of his THEN you have to say something. I would have a chat "face to face"away from everybody and if he does NOT get the message, then the LAST resort is to call your assignor and refuse to work with "this guy' again. It's one thing if you get a game or 2 with "this guy" but if you have a "steady diet" it's very frustarting and something has to be done. Pete Booth