PeteBooth

You received good advice on mechanics, however, since you had an inexperienced F2 it's not a good idea for you to say As others said if F2 is raising his mit simply call the pitch a ball. I am not condoning the actions of the coach but this is common in youth / rec ball which 15U can fall into that category. The coach should not tell you where to position yourself. That's none of his business but you "opened yourself up" because you were doing the same thing to one of his players. You do not tell players where to position themselves, whether it's F2, F3 F4 so on and so forth. If F2 can't catch and you find yourself playing "dodge ball" back there that's an altogether different situation but that's not what you referred to in your OP. Hopefully you have a good BU because the BU should stop the coach "dead in his tracks" once he starts complaining about you. I do not know how much experience you have but the following was taught to me "many moons ago" and has served me well. 1. Coaches Coach 2. Players Play 3. Umpires officiate We do not want coaches telling us where to position ourselves etc and on the same token we should do the same. Pete Booth

Warren it's a nit-pick but non-the-less a standard rule FWIW: In adult Men's league games it's wise to adhere to all rules even the nit'pick'n ones just in case. Pete Booth

There is no "middle ground" when it comes to NABA games. They are either horrible or a pleasure to do. Like most things it depends upon who is in charge and how the league operates. As far as game Fees. 7 innings - $70.00 2.5 hr time limit 9 innings - $80.00 3 hr time limit Mercy rule in effect - 7 inning games HT ahead by 10 after 4.5 or VT ahead after 5 full 9 inning games same as above except the "kick in" inning is the 7th unless of coarse the time limit is reached. Pete Booth

As semper Fi said if you are ging to umpire LL registering is a good thing and it's not that expensive. My question to you however, would be? Why going back to LL? You said a couple year stint in upper-girls fastpitch softball. Did something happen? Why not continue? Was this upper-girls fastpitch softball HS level, select travel? Also, did you get paid and by paid I mean market rates? I have done my time in LL and my feeling is this. it's up to the next group of parents / adults to "pick up the slac" Also, Gas to and from the games / Clinics / Equipment / Uniforms and accessories are not cheap and LL for the most part is volunteer and if you do get paid at least from my experiences the pay is not a market rate pay. All in all if you officiated upper-girls fast-pitch softball I do not undertand why you want to umpire LL where for the most part the baseball/softball is not very good. I would get HS certified ( if you are not already) and continue to officiate upper ball. If you want to donate a game or 2 that's fine but IMO not to the extent that Semper said in his response 10 hours or 5 games. For me 5 games translates into $300.00 (The market rate where I officiate for a seven inning game is $60.00) Bottom Line: you do what you want and if LL is where you want to go then by all means go for it. Pete Booth

Comparing PRO ball to amateur ball (which is what most of us umpire in) is Apples / Oranges I am assuming (I know I know) that most of us belong to an association. As they say do as the Romans do. This type of OP reminds me of the BU carrying an indicator on the bases. Some associations say NO and some leave it up to the BU. I do not say 3 balls 2 strikes. I say 3 and 2 or 32. Where I work everyone understands the nomanclature 22 (for a count of 2 balls 2 strikes) 21 (2 balls and one strike) and so on and so forth. In HS Varsity and CBL I also say 2's which means a count of 2-2. Again they understand the nomanclature. Here is the most important part no matter what you do. In amateur baseball give the count loud and clear so everyone knows what it is. At least for me the fields I umpire in do not have luxurious scoreboards where the count is given etc. As far as PRO school, remember they need a certain criteria in which to rate their students, hence if you aspire to umpire PRO ball then do what the instructors tell you to do. Also, as we have found out over the past 10 yrs or so umpire mechanics are in a way similar to computer software meaning they are constantly changing. Todays mechanics are different then what was taught 20 yrs ago or as mentioned even 10 yrs. ago. Pete Booth

We can all disagree and a poster can post in any section he/she wishes but from the OP IMO, the aforementioned is not generic. It's about a 9U game and as I mentioned and also Rich Ives eluded to there is a difference between the role of the umpire at one's local LL / youth ball league then in other types of ball where the official at a youth event is part of the "family." I worked in a youth league where the UIC wanted the umpires to stay on the field and watch the players shake hands etc. That's why IMO, this site does have different sections (which as I responded to Michael was my bad for not looking hard enough) and rightly so. I do not think it is condensing etc. because there are some individuals who only want to officate youth / rec ball and IMO they would get a response more suited / tailored to their level of officiating. Example: At umpire.org which I visit frequently they have separate sections for FED / NCAA baseball. Therefore, if I wanted to know something specific or seek input on NCAA or FED baseball it would make more sense to post at those separate sections. Same is true about the NFHS Forum which is specific to HS baseball. Yes in the generic Forums sometimes NCAA / FED rules come up but for the most part if something is specific to FED or NCAA you post there. A poster can post anywhere they wish. My point was that this was a 9U game and if posted at the small diamond / youth/rec ball Forum IMO the answers would then be tailored for that level of ball. If that seems condesending then my bad as that was not my intention. After all why were these separate sections created in the first place? Most likely to accomodate questions dealing with "rug rat" level baseball and that's all I am saying. Pete Booth

My bad Michael. That's exactly the place for this OP. Pete Booth

Michael I agree but IMO where things went South is when we 'got off the beaten trail" which sometimes happens. Here is the premise of the OP The aforementioned is not a case where the batter is doing what he is supposed to meaning keeping one foot in the box, getting his signs and now is ready to hit and F1 is not giving him ample time to do this. If that's the case then by all means balk F1, however, that is not what the poster presented and I plus some others were responding to the particulars in the OP. Once one starts "twisting" the OP then anything is game and the original question or comment gets "lost in the shuffle". Pete Booth

A good question with NO real difinitive answer. Here is what I mean. If the F word is said is that an automatic EJ? Answer: It depends If only YOU and the party involved heard it some might let it go. Others when they hear it no matter what the circumstance give the hook. That's why EJ type threads are difficult to respond to because there is NO clear cut answers. Here is another - Upper ball The PU calls a strike. The player objects and draws a line around the plate. Some will EJ right then and there. Me I have sent "a message" meaning the next pitch no matter where it was was a strike. Most likely a thread all it's own. The POINT as mentioned there is no DIFINITIVE answer. It's a game by game process. You also have to take into account the nature of the teams involved meaning are these teams 'arch rivals" etc. You do not want to loose control over the game so you might have a quicker "trigger" so that the game does not spin out of control. Case and Point: Back when the Knicks were good (seems like eons ago) the Knicks and the Heat had some fierce battles . The officials in those games called the game 'closer to the vest" then they would otherwise because those 2 teams were noted to have some fights etc. You said .... My recommendation would be this. If you let some things slide during those games what happened? Did the game "spin out of control" or turn ugly? Were you and your partner simply "lucky" that nothing ugly did happen. In other words examine the games in which you had some doubts about issuing an EJ and ultimately how the game proceeded. That's a start Pete Booth

We all have our opinions BUT for the MOST part you will NOT see what happened in this OP on any size field or age group. You said 9U so it's understandable. I am not saying you will not get a bad partner once in a while at the HS or college level BUT NOT what happened in this OP. If you were doing a HS Varsity, College, Legion et al calibur league and acted in the manner described in the OP it would most likely be your last at that level. All the assignor would have to see is 2 umpires having a post game ON THE FIELD of play and that would be it. As stated for the most part your OP is typical of youth ball and that's why I said it would be a good idea to have a small diamond type section on this site. Pete Booth

Irrelevant On a pop-fly in the infield the runners are NOT going anywhere. Also, in addition to calling IF the umpire is supposed to SIGNAL. If the players see NO signal then NO IF. If the coach does YELL something, then the umpire can negate by simply saying NO IF so that the players KNOW to disregard the DC. FWIW: In the scheme of things if it's a pop-up ANYWHERE in the infield for shaved players call the IF. As far as your assertion happens all game long. There is a lot of NOISE in the ball park. Suppose a FAN Yells IF going to call Fan Interference or negate the play because a FAN said something? Pete Booth

Mr Umpire: IMO, here is the underlying theme There is OFFICIATING and Then there is LL / YOUTH ball Officiating That's why IMO, it would be a good idea for Warren to add another section called Small Diamond or Youth / Rec ball because as you can see the answers vary DRASTICALLY. The role of the umpire in LL and Youth ball for that matter is different and that IMO, is what Rich is conveying. As Rich said the umpire at the LL or youth level is considered part of the "family" and therefore takes on a different role. Presently at least for me umpiring is a business. Umpiring at the Youth / LL level is NOT a business. I do NOT hang around, wait for the players to shake hands, discuss the game with my partner ON THE FIELD or anything of that nature which depending upon location seems to be the norm in LL or Youth ball. I do not get involved with scheduling, field availability etc. I get a schedule, show up at the game site 30-45 minutes ahead of time. Meet my partner and have a Pre-game. We walk ON an OFF the field together. When the game is OVER the PU hands whatever baseballs he has left to the HC and we LEAVE. Anything that needs to be discussed will be done in the parking lot or over some "cold ones" In a nutshell there is a difference in "approach" to LL / Youth officiating and Officiating in general and this post is evidence of that distinction. Pete Booth

What "tone" are you referring to? You asked for input. I gave it based upon my experiences. I did not insult you, call you names etc. yet you say "your tone sure can get tiring" No clinic that I have attended recommends hanging around ON THE FIELD after the game to discuss what just happened and that is what I conveyed to you in my response. It's amazing on the internet these days when posters ask for input, receive it and then say they do not like the 'tone". Perhaps it's time for Warren (who has done a real good job with this site) to add another section called: Small Diamond, Youth/Rec ball or something along those lines because that's where this type of OP belongs. Pete Booth

This is OBR so what rule support do you have for nullifying what MAY have been caused by the coach? In OBR there is so Verbal OBS or verbal Interference. (reference JR) In OBR the play STANDS. Remember the AROD play against the Blue Jays? In an OBR based game whatever happens happens. Obviously you speak to the coach but there is no rule support to UNDO what happened. In a FED game you have rule support. Pete Booth

The aforementioned is a akin to an umpire calling a ball FOUL. We all echo the foul call. When your partner called IFR then you echo the call. After the game you can discuss this play. First things First. You said you were playing by OBR rules. In OBR there is no such animal as verbal OBS. FED has both verbal OBS and Verbal Int. You do NOT call time immediately. These are 13-15's so IMO at this age level (15 is JV level) they should KNOW to ignore the actions of the "other" coach. To me it's akin to the 1B coach giving a safe sign on a banger at first. The coaches safe signal means NOTHING. It's what the umpire says. IMO, the main problem in this OP is YOUR silence. Your partner called the IF and you said NOTHING. Perhaps the DC while not actually hearing the PU say IF saw the signal, hence he instructed his defense. If in fact neither you or your partner called it then after the play you speak to the coach. Remember the IF is to protect the offense and generally speaking when you have a pop-up ANYWHERE in the infield it's best to call the IF. Pete Booth

The batter CERTAINLY has done "something" illegal Also, if the league had adopted the batter's box rule, then B1 has violated that rule as well. You have put F1 in a "no win scenario" and let B1 "off the hook" for delaying the game. If F1 stops you balk him If F1 pitches you call a QP and with men on base = balk. Tell me what do you want F1 to do? Stand there "all day" and wait for B1 to get off his "cell phone' and finally come to bat. This OP is a "do-over" at best. As an offical when you see B1 take his "sweet time" you call TIME and tell B1 what the deal is. The next time start calling strikes. In the OP AS PRESENTED (batter taking WAY too long) B1 is the guilty party. Pete Booth

The VC came to YOUR partner and you go straight for them Why? It's NOT your place. Also, why are YOU giving a warning and a restriction? Did the VC approach YOU with the rule-book? No you should NOT have taken over. It's NOT your place. Again NOT your place. You get involved when the following happens 1. Your partner gets into a HEATED argument with a coach. You then come in to protect your partner and calm things down. 2. During a heated exchange your partner tosses an angry coach. YOU escort the coach away from the premises. 3. Someone utters an F bomb where EVERYONE hears it. There are probably some others but the point is this. Your partner has to "speak for himself" Now I recommend being NEAR the conversation just in case a report has to be filed and you can attest to the situation. What in "GOD's earth" are you and your partner hanging around the field for? GET OUT OF DODGE. If you want to discuss the game do it at your car AWAY from everybody NOT at the field. Pete Booth

Agreed BUT this group only has 7/8 members so whom are you hurting when you put one of the members on the bottom of the list. Answer: The assignor There's not too much you can do as an assignor when you have such a small group other then refuse the game(s) altogether. Perhaps I am "reading too much into it" but when I hear that there is a core group of 7/8 officials translates into "we want all the games and do not want more officials" In a nutshell, if you have ample games you need more then 7/8 members otherwise what happened in this OP will happen time and time again. It's amazing the responses you get when the officials KNOW that the assignor can get someone else in a heartbeat. All of a sudden those NO's that you used to get turn into YES's Pete Booth

The problem IMO is not the fact that you have to umpire 4 games and the last 2 solo but the fact that you only have 7/8 members. Why not more? Is it because the other members do not want to "share the wealth" and allow others to join? I do not know how many games your group does but if you are the assignor you should seriously think about getting more members so that what happened to you this past weekend doesn't happen again. Pete Booth

You are probably right BUT you cannot assume anything. I had one of those games with a partner. After the game I made it a priority to have a post game and my partner said he was sorry and his head wasn't in the game because of personal reasons. He said he should have "kicked" the game but it was too late. The point is there could be a VALID reason why this umpire had a bad game. Yes he could be a jerk BUT the point is you cannot go "crying" to the assignor when you have one of those games. I do not know about you but over my career I had my share of bad games (not like the one in the OP) where my zone was horrible or I kicked a few calls on the base. It happens and I would not appreciate it if every-time I had a bad game my partner called the assignor to complain. I would call the assignor because inevitably when you have a bad game the coaches will be on the horn to the assignor as well. In Summary: You could be right the individual could have simply taken off didn't care etc BUT IMO, you need to find out rather then simply making a phone call after the game. Pete Booth

The BATTER is the offender. He is taking his "sweet time" in getting to the plate. You have NO batter so how can you have a pitch? You are the one refusing to look at the facts as presented in the OP. We are not talking about a batter having one foot in the box and getting his signs and F1 NOT giving the batter ample time to do this. If that's the case then by all means balk F1 etc., HOWEVER, that is NOT what's happening in this OP. The batter is the OFFENDER here and IMO, you call TIME tell B1 what the deal is and continue. If he repeats the delay tactic and your league has a batter's box rule then start calling strikes. To call a balk or QP in THIS particlar OP is absurd. Based upon your answer you are CONDONING the actions of the batter. Pete Booth

From the OP My interp of the situation was that F4 was holding the tag on the runner AFTER continuous action stopped or during RELAX play. I agree with your premise IF there was continuous action. The defense had a play but the runner beat the throw. He did NOT overslide the base etc. The runner is on the bag where F4 is holding the TAG when action is RELAXED. Should the runner ask for TIME? Yes but IMO, to give the defense an out when action is relaxed is "ticky tac" IMO, the defense did NOT earn the out. The reason I am calling TIME is NOT to be the 10th defensive player BUT to get the game moving and also inform ALL partcipants that this is NOT LL anymore so make your play BUT get the ball back to F1 and lets play. Bottom line: During continuous action then by all means let the play "play out" but once action is relaxed and you see a fielder holding the tag then tell said fielder to throw the ball back or call TIME and stop the nonsense. FWIW: For the most part you do not see this in upper ball. It's mainly a youth issue. Pete Booth

Tell him "I've got ALL Fair / FOUL calls so DO NO straddle the line anymore. Unfortunately you NOW have to point back to him. It's his call and it's UP to him to explain to the coach when he comes running out. It's akin to a play at the plate and all of sudden you point to the BU to make the call. In a later response you mentioned that you stopped to talk to the guys doing the next game. IMO, it was more important for you to have a POST game with your partner so you should have said to the guys doing the next game "catch up with you later" I am by no means Condoning the actions of this umpire BUT did you have a SOLID Pre-game with him? My guess is that your association has a shortage hence you have a guy with little or no experience or simply is out for a check and doesn't care. FWIW: You are lucky you didn't have a NIGHTMARE on your hands. In the future FIND out whom your partner is and if it's someone you are working with for the first time make CERTAIN you have a SOLID Pre-game OR make some inquiries. Pete Booth

Coaches are coaches and while rules are important if I took up coaching as serious as I did umpiring I would attend a COACHES clinic as opposed to an umpires clinic. I like Rich Ives idea. Develop a rules 'cheat sheet' and post in on the web for coaches. This "cheat sheet" should not be a thesis but a recap of the basic rules / Regulations. Remember many "rules" etc. in Youth leagues are NOT rules. They are regulations set forth by the appropriate Youth league. Example: In LL and now in some HS states there are pitch counts. In LL on the 60ft. diamond no head first slides going forward In LL on the 60 ft. diamond, No on deck batter except the first batter in each inning. Coaches cannot warm-up F1 SPR (Special Pinch runner) rule MPR - Mandataory Play rule Many many more so IMO, it's more important for a coach to KNOW these "house" rules then it is to know the book rules. USSSA has their own set of rules as does Ripken / Babe Ruth etc. That's why a "cheat sheet" posted on a web-site or via hand-out is the best approach. A coach has enough to do with scheduling practices, scrimmage games, dealing with parents etc. etc. They are NOT umpires nor should they be expected to be one. That's OUR job. They NEED to KNOW the house rules. I have attended many an umpire clinic but have no inclination or desire to attend a coaches clinic. We have DIFFERENT reponsibilties out there. It is important for a coach to know the BASIC rules that one will encounter for the most part each and every game and those he can get from the "cheat sheet" Some coaches go the "extra yard" and have more knowledge then others but that is up to them. The old saying goes 1. Coaches Coach 2. Players Play 3. Umpires officiate Pete Booth

The defense had a legitimate chance of getting the runner and they didn't. Most of the times the runner will ask for time to dust himself off. Don't allow fielders to HOLD tags on runners. It's one thing if the runner overslides the base etc. In other words, avoid the "LL /youth thing" where fielders delay the game by holding the tag way too long. When I see it I call time and say "guys this isn't LL anymore" and they get the message. As far as the comments it depends upon how it was said and how loudly it was said. IMO, you did make a "ticky / tac" call by allowing a fielder to hold the tag. Pete Booth