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Throwing the bat

mtnump

By mtnump
in Youth Recreation Ball

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mtnump

mtnump

Posted
Posted

I haven't had this in a while, but they say stuff happens in 3's so...LL Juniors Top of 1, 2 outs B3 hits a sharp ground ball through the infield and as he is leaving the box I have a 31" bat helicopter over the F2's head and into me...I have found nothing in LL Rulebook to help me yet...tell me what you would do...:question1:

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Aging_Arbiter
Aging_Arbiter

Actually, quite a few years back we tried something that has seemed to help.  for our coach pitch kids, about 10'-15' up the 1st base line, we would use the chalk liner to make about a 6' circle in fo

Rich Ives
Rich Ives

And you can NOT call an out for the throw unless it interfered with a fielder making a play - and no, hitting the catcher while F4 is fielding the ball doesn't qualify.

mtnump
mtnump

In a HS or higher league I would not discuss with the coach, but in our LL it is done occassionally. Everyone got educated, he respects me more for looking into the situation and finding out how thin

umpirecordova

umpirecordova

Posted
Posted

I'm not to familiar with the LL rules. But when i was first umpiring I did Cal Ripken and as a rule of thumb we always warned a kid and if he did it again he was out. Never had a problem with it, as far as coaches. But I know there is no official rule that states what to do in this situation. If you rule on the side of safety you can't be wrong. Depending on the age of the kids defiantly talk to his coach and to him about it.

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

LL has a warn and eject policy for carelessly thrown bats. Bats thrown in anger are an automatic ejection. Now in your case, the bat was dangerously thrown, you can take your choice. I usually warn and eject, even in this situation.

calablue

calablue

Posted
Posted

I'm not to familiar with the LL rules. But when i was first umpiring I did Cal Ripken and as a rule of thumb we always warned a kid and if he did it again he was out. Never had a problem with it, as far as coaches. But I know there is no official rule that states what to do in this situation. If you rule on the side of safety you can't be wrong. Depending on the age of the kids defiantly talk to his coach and to him about it.

This sounds like a warn 1st, and eject later if it happens again. If he were to reach base safely, you can eject, but he is not out and can be replaced by another runner.

Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

LL has a warn and eject policy for carelessly thrown bats. Bats thrown in anger are an automatic ejection. Now in your case, the bat was dangerously thrown, you can take your choice. I usually warn and eject, even in this situation.

And you can NOT call an out for the throw unless it interfered with a fielder making a play - and no, hitting the catcher while F4 is fielding the ball doesn't qualify.

  • Like 1
sdix00

sdix00

Posted
Posted

Probably a good time to emphasize that OBR , including LL, provides no way to call a batter or runner out for unsportsmanlike conduct. IF that unsportsmanlike activity is ALSO judged to be interference, THEN the batter or runner can be called out for interference.

Unsportsmanlike Conduct (with no interference) is penalized with Warning/Ejection only. And the player ejected is replaced from the bench.

IN FED, Malicious Contact and Force Play Slide Rule violations have specific provisions to call a batter or runner out.

NCAA has something similar to FED but I won't comment as I have not researched it properly.

mtnump

mtnump

Posted
  • Author
Posted

LL has a warn and eject policy for carelessly thrown bats. Bats thrown in anger are an automatic ejection. Now in your case, the bat was dangerously thrown, you can take your choice. I usually warn and eject, even in this situation.

Can you give me the LL reference so I can find it?

Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

LL has a warn and eject policy for carelessly thrown bats. Bats thrown in anger are an automatic ejection. Now in your case, the bat was dangerously thrown, you can take your choice. I usually warn and eject, even in this situation.

Can you give me the LL reference so I can find it?

2011 RIM top of page 73

Situations such as throwing the bat and other potentially unsafe actions should be covered as follows: Warn the player and warn the other members of this player’s team. After the warnings highly recommend to the manager of the offending team that it is time to substitute for the offender until they are properly schooled in the proper method of discarding the bat after the ball is hit. While there is no easy solution to this problem ultimately the responsibility rests with the team manager for teaching the players the proper way to discard a bat.

Now if you read through the RIM you'll find that failure to "obey" a warning is ejection.

Or you could follow the discussions on the LL Facebook page.

Or you could just choose to believe what we tell you.

You do believe it's not an out don't you?

mtnump

mtnump

Posted
  • Author
Posted

yes, but I have a coach that wants the rule cited because he had 2 players throw bats during the game.

mtnump

mtnump

Posted
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Posted

:bang:So everybody knows I did warn and then subsequently called not 1 but 2 batters out for throwing their bats. I know, I know!!! :bang: I had a feeling after the game that I was wrong so I started looking and posted the OP to get educated. I am now educated...at least on this topic. The coach was actually pretty understanding during the game as were the fans, including the involved multiple offender's dad. They saw me get hit with a bat twice by the same kid and the other kid threw his to the screen, so the kids weren't getting much sympathy. But of course after the game the coach got home and started reading as well and found out I was wrong and he wanted to be sure to point it out...

Beat me up if you want to, but I put myself out there with you guys to get the right information so I can avoid this mistake in the future...

Thank you for your help.

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

Not a problem getting wrong, especially since it isn't a written rule, just remember it and don't do it again. :) LL doesn't write an actual rule because there are degrees of bat throwing they were concerned it would be taken to the nth degree by untrained umpires. There are three basic levels of bat throwing. The first is carelessly thrown, what you had, that is warn and eject. I generally walk down and explain up close and personal that he is dangerous and needs to quit. The second is throwing in anger or frustration. It doesn't make a difference if he does it because he is anger at himself or you, he goes pronto. The third part is a thrown bat that doesn't fit either catergory. It is a bat that is thrown as the batter leaves the box but is just that, a bat thrown by a batter. Not everyone lays their bat neatly beside the plate before they run to first. Sometimes they throw it fifteen ft or more. As long as he isn't throwing it at another player then it is nothing.

mtnump

mtnump

Posted
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Posted

So help me out if you will. Where can I find the RIM? I am a lone ranger out here...there is no Umpire's Association for LL so I am on my own as far as resources. I am working hard to get into the HS association for next year, so I am educating myself all that I can and this forum has been wonderful. The coach in question can't get it through his head that the problem is the kids throwing the bat, not my blown handling of it...so I need to get a copy of the RIM so I can show it to him...

Thanks!

Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

So help me out if you will. Where can I find the RIM? I am a lone ranger out here...there is no Umpire's Association for LL so I am on my own as far as resources. I am working hard to get into the HS association for next year, so I am educating myself all that I can and this forum has been wonderful. The coach in question can't get it through his head that the problem is the kids throwing the bat, not my blown handling of it...so I need to get a copy of the RIM so I can show it to him...

Thanks!

If you join the LL umpires registry you will get access to the RIM and a bunch of other really good stuff.

http://www.littleleague.org/umpires.htm

Have the coach read rules 6.05 and 6.06. The ones that start "The batter is out . . . when". Notice that throwing the bat is NOT there.

Then read 9.01(c ). It says the umpire can rule on things not in the rules. Then point out that how a batter is a out is in the rules so you cannot use 9.01(c ).

Dragon29

Dragon29

Posted
Posted

Kyle stole my answer.

mtnump - You've mentioned a couple of times that the coach wants a rule citation. That's fine for the coach, but if he asks you for one, or to 'show me the rule' on the field during a game, the correct response is, "No." Repeat your ruling and move on.

It's not your job to quote chapter & verse for the coach during the game. If he wants to know the rules, he can crack open that little green book that's at the bottom of the duffel bag he has all the old catcher's gear in. . . . and, he'd better not bring it out to you either!

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

If he wants a rule reference, tell him that during the game is not the time. Suggest if he disagrees to show later where you are wrong. Since the only reference is in the RIM, he will never be able to prove you wrong. Most will assume they just can't find it.

mtnump

mtnump

Posted
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Posted

...and as he is leaving the box I have a 31" bat helicopter over the F2's head and into me......tell me what you would do...:question1:

Duck!

It only took 2 weeks for someone to come up with that!!!

Rule reference for the coach was the day after the game. He emailed me and the league president to let us know he found out in the rulebook that I screwed up. When I told him that the kid should have been ejected instead he wanted a rule reference. Now he is not happy because he has never heard of the RIM...Oh well, you just can't make some people happy.:jerkit:

yawetag

yawetag

Posted
Posted

Rule reference for the coach was the day after the game. He emailed me and the league president to let us know he found out in the rulebook that I screwed up. When I told him that the kid should have been ejected instead he wanted a rule reference. Now he is not happy because he has never heard of the RIM...Oh well, you just can't make some people happy.

I'll file this under "Reasons to not talk to a coach after a game."

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

His lack of knowledge is irrelevant, the Rim was developed originally as a tool for the regional instructors to use when teaching. It is as official as the casebook is for high school.

mtnump

mtnump

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Rule reference for the coach was the day after the game. He emailed me and the league president to let us know he found out in the rulebook that I screwed up. When I told him that the kid should have been ejected instead he wanted a rule reference. Now he is not happy because he has never heard of the RIM...Oh well, you just can't make some people happy.

I'll file this under "Reasons to not talk to a coach after a game."

In a HS or higher league I would not discuss with the coach, but in our LL it is done occassionally. Everyone got educated, he respects me more for looking into the situation and finding out how things should have been handled and we both now know about the RIM. (Thank you MST!) We are all better for it. I have worked several of his games since and things have gone very well. I don't make a practice of this, but it worked in this situation. All emails were cc'd to the league president...I don't have an association to help out,...that is what you guys are for!!!

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  • 2 years later...
tjwoelfel13

tjwoelfel13

Posted
Posted

In my league, for carelessly thrown bats each team gets one warning and the next batter who does it is automatically out. The only exception is when the bat hits somebody then it is an automatic out regardless of warnings.

Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted

In my league, for carelessly thrown bats each team gets one warning and the next batter who does it is automatically out. The only exception is when the bat hits somebody then it is an automatic out regardless of warnings.

Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted

In my league, for carelessly thrown bats each team gets one warning and the next batter who does it is automatically out. The only exception is when the bat hits somebody then it is an automatic out regardless of warnings.

So a player with a bad habit gets to stay in the game and maybe do it again?

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