F5 Obstruction - LLBWS

[Velho]

Opening day game from yesterday

[maven]

Yes, that's OBS. 

U3 should call time before awarding HP.

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, maven said:

Yes, that's OBS. 

U3 should call time before awarding HP.

It's OBS but can you make a case for Type B (LL still uses letters)? Unfortunately no, F3 was already making a play on the runner. 

[The Man in Blue]

Wow.  I just made a point about/case for timing to be an element that has to be considered. 

F3 may have been preparing to throw and may be in the act of throwing (ball was not in flight) . . . but F5 - the fielder who obstructed - was not making the play on the runner at that point. Should the timing of any of that matter? It may feel as if it should, but no, not in this case.

Was the runner obstructed? Yes, by F5. Was he played on? Yes, by F3. ". . . a play is being made on the obstructed runner . . . " so Type 1.  Umpire should have killed it.

Think of it this way: Line drive down the first base line. F6 obstructs R2 between 2nd and 3rd base, but R2 rounds 3rd and is headed home. F9 fires to F2 for a close play at the plate. We still have obstruction and a runner being played on, even if F6 was not involved in the play.  

 

I will say I feel this is another place where softball has a superior rule. Any obstruction is a delayed dead ball. If a play is made on the obstructed runner, everything stays live until the runner is "tagged out" or there is no more playing action. At that point, you kill it. No need to distinguish different types.

 

 

[TheLovejoy]

16 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Wow.  I just made a point about/case for timing to be an element that has to be considered. 

F3 may have been preparing to throw and may be in the act of throwing (ball was not in flight) . . . but F5 - the fielder who obstructed - was not making the play on the runner at that point. Should the timing of any of that matter? It may feel as if it should, but no, not in this case.

Was the runner obstructed? Yes, by F5. Was he played on? Yes, by F3. ". . . a play is being made on the obstructed runner . . . " so Type 1.  Umpire should have killed it.

Think of it this way: Line drive down the first base line. F6 obstructs R2 between 2nd and 3rd base, but R2 rounds 3rd and is headed home. F9 fires to F2 for a close play at the plate. We still have obstruction and a runner being played on, even if F6 was not involved in the play.  

 

I will say I feel this is another place where softball has a superior rule. Any obstruction is a delayed dead ball. If a play is made on the obstructed runner, everything stays live until the runner is "tagged out" or there is no more playing action. At that point, you kill it. No need to distinguish different types.

 

 

I'm curious as to why you think that would make more sense? (I'm not saying no, I'm just thinking of a scenario where that is much more complicated)

In this exact scenario, The Type 1, A, whatever obstruction would award him one base beyond the last base occupied. So he is getting home. Now, let's say that this is a delayed dead ball, and the runner is safe at first base, and this obstructed runner gets in to a run down between 3b and home. Now the batter-runner ends up rounding the bases and gets to 3rd base, and the obstructed runner is tagged out in the run down. What do you think the solution there would be?

Leave the B/R on 3rd and score the run? 

(I'm legit asking, not trying to play devils advocate scenarios.)

[The Man in Blue]

This is going to sound like an odd answer @TheLovejoy, but I didn't say it made more sense . . . I said it was a superior rule.  I believe you get the same outcomes, it's just that the wording is much more "user friendly" as you aren't having to parse out whether a play is being made or not.  (I am only talking about the application, not the penalties at this point.)

If I am missing something in your example, let me know.  The rundown does not matter.  As you said, he was obstructed AND played on, so he is getting home.  Under the OBR rule, the ball is dead immediately upon the play. Now you have to figure out what to do with following runners.  There was no run down.  Odds are, BR is only getting second because you killed it.

With a delayed dead ball, it plays out (until the obstructed runner is tagged OR there is no more play to occur) and the runner will get where the runner actually gets.

Now . . . if we want to compare baseball and softball penalties . . . 

Softball penalties right now are . . . headed in the right direction, but a bit of a mess. They want (and have) a provision that allows you to put the runner back.  Essentially, they cannot be called out while under the protection (typically between the bases where the obstruction occurred, but it can be extended). If you judge they would not have gotten that next base, you can put them back.  In your example, yes, the BR would go back as well. 

Where softball is running into issues is that they also have a provision that allows for you to still call he runner out if you judge the obstruction had no effect. Their concepts are all solid, but the execution is problematic because they are trying to eliminate as much judgement as possible rather than train and trust umpires.

 

[TheLovejoy]

  No, I don't think you're missing anything. Just for clarification, I was just thinking of a semi-odd scenario where the delayed dead ball all of the time would be a much better option, specifically thinking of the difference between NFHS and OBR. I hadn't thought of the softball aspect of it.

  I was just thinking of the potential issues there could be with it being delayed all the time, vs killing it on the play on a runner if the runner tried to work the system by getting into a rundown on purpose, trying to cause some type of other obstruction AFTER the initial play on him already had obstruction in it to get trailing runners to advance further, or something wonky.