Player told me I'm Number One .....

[HumblePie]

Senior League (affiliated with Little League).   Ages 13-16 ... mostly 13-14 yr olds.

Coach is batting all 10 players with no subs.  Top of 4th, player strikes out on a foul tip and stands there ... either confused that the catcher caught it, or he lost the count.  Not sure which.  I had already made the tip mechanic and the high fist, but he didn't see it, so I just said, "That's three."  He slowly walked away and said, "Bullsh..", flung his bat into the fence, spiked his helmet (got a good 12' bounce) and I ejected him.  He then signaled to me that I was number one ... unfortunately right in front of Mom, who was the Asst Coach.  Her immediate reaction was, "You pack your $h.. and get out of this dugout."

I told her I specifically tossed him for throwing equipment, because I didn't want her to think that the mild profanity got him, and the "bird" came afterwards.

I turned in a very short EJ report and classified it as "offensive," not "extremely offensive" and not "violent" ... which were the 3 choices.

Two days later I'm back at the same park (it's playoff week) and everyone is buzzing about the kid who flipped off the umpire and may never play in that league again.

What annoyed me the most is that the local league has a rule that states explicitly (because the LL Rulebook is LOUDLY silent on this) that the lineup simply collapses, and there is no automatic out for the spot in the batting order where the ejected kid batted.

I have never officiated or coached in a league that allows this.  If you have no subs, many leagues make exceptions for injuries, illnesses, and family matters that require a kid to leave a game early ... but EJECTIONS are the GRAND EXCEPTION ... it is ALWAYS an auto out when a team has no subs.

Instead of the good old peer pressure of punishing the team for that one game, this kid may never play again.  That's tragic, not discipline.

Does anyone have thoughts for or against?

[Replacematt]

38 minutes ago, HumblePie said:

Senior League (affiliated with Little League).   Ages 13-16 ... mostly 13-14 yr olds.

Coach is batting all 10 players with no subs.  Top of 4th, player strikes out on a foul tip and stands there ... either confused that the catcher caught it, or he lost the count.  Not sure which.  I had already made the tip mechanic and the high fist, but he didn't see it, so I just said, "That's three."  He slowly walked away and said, "Bullsh..", flung his bat into the fence, spiked his helmet (got a good 12' bounce) and I ejected him.  He then signaled to me that I was number one ... unfortunately right in front of Mom, who was the Asst Coach.  Her immediate reaction was, "You pack your $h.. and get out of this dugout."

I told her I specifically tossed him for throwing equipment, because I didn't want her to think that the mild profanity got him, and the "bird" came afterwards.

I turned in a very short EJ report and classified it as "offensive," not "extremely offensive" and not "violent" ... which were the 3 choices.

Two days later I'm back at the same park (it's playoff week) and everyone is buzzing about the kid who flipped off the umpire and may never play in that league again.

What annoyed me the most is that the local league has a rule that states explicitly (because the LL Rulebook is LOUDLY silent on this) that the lineup simply collapses, and there is no automatic out for the spot in the batting order where the ejected kid batted.

I have never officiated or coached in a league that allows this.  If you have no subs, many leagues make exceptions for injuries, illnesses, and family matters that require a kid to leave a game early ... but EJECTIONS are the GRAND EXCEPTION ... it is ALWAYS an auto out when a team has no subs.

Instead of the good old peer pressure of punishing the team for that one game, this kid may never play again.  That's tragic, not discipline.

Does anyone have thoughts for or against?

An out for an ejected player is asinine.

The purpose of an ejection is to isolate the penalty to that participant (lower-order effects notwithstanding.) It's to avoid direct impact on the game being played. 

The rationale of punishing the team for an individual's actions is even more ludicrous. It's borderline sadistic as peer pressure can't be done after the fact and expecting kids to police their peers is not feasible, foremost because kids are impulsive and things like this happen regardless of whatever "pressure" they may feel from peers, and also because they don't grasp causality to the degree needed to associate behaviors with ejections--they do not have the executive functioning to do that until well into their teens.

[MadMax]

In the clear blue sky Land of Little League, full of teddy bears, Thomas the Train, and LEGOs, there are no (player) Ejections. The recitation of pledges and spirit of sportsmanship is supposed to thoroughly fill and frame the motivations of every young ballplayer. 

@Replacematt’s sentiments are dead-on. 

The only league or TS I’ve ever seen punish an Ejection with a repeating Out in the lineup is USSSA, and there were some weird clauses surrounding it. 

[Coach Carl]

The LL rules do not use "ejection" in 4.04 Note 2:

"...when a player is injured, becomes ill, or must leave the game site after the start of the game, the team will skip over him...without penalty"

6.05 and 6.06 lists all the ways a batter is out, and none of them mention an ejected player when his turn comes.

I don't think it's a stretch at all to apply 4.04 Note 2 to ejections.  

[HumblePie]

This is precisely the rule I was referring to as being LOUDLY silent.

To ignore ejections, as though they don't happen, and are not part of baseball, I don't care if the player is 8 or 18, is ludicrous.

This is why the local Senior League created their own local rule to clarify that ejections fall within this rule's intent ... Because the Little League rule book is like the town gossip who can't say the word "pneumonia" because she's afraid she'll catch it if she does.

[jimurrayalterego]

18 minutes ago, HumblePie said:

This is precisely the rule I was referring to as being LOUDLY silent.

To ignore ejections, as though they don't happen, and are not part of baseball, I don't care if the player is 8 or 18, is ludicrous.

This is why the local Senior League created their own local rule to clarify that ejections fall within this rule's intent ... Because the Little League rule book is like the town gossip who can't say the word "pneumonia" because she's afraid she'll catch it if she does.

I agree with @Coach Carl that it is not a stretch to apply 4.04 Note 2 and I don't think LL was being "loudly" silent in not including this in that rule. They may just have been thinking you had common sense. They mention ejections of players throughout the book.

[HumblePie]

Jim, you're number one.

[The Man in Blue]

Elevens, baby, elevens.

[DevildogUmp]

11 hours ago, HumblePie said:

This is precisely the rule I was referring to as being LOUDLY silent.

To ignore ejections, as though they don't happen, and are not part of baseball, I don't care if the player is 8 or 18, is ludicrous.

This is why the local Senior League created their own local rule to clarify that ejections fall within this rule's intent ... Because the Little League rule book is like the town gossip who can't say the word "pneumonia" because she's afraid she'll catch it if she does.

I'm not sure why you think LL  ignores ejection, a quick word search has ejections referenced 28 times in the rule book, 15 time in the RIM, and 8 times in the casebook. By comparison, the FED book references ejections 19 times.

I think this is more of an editorial decision, but since the book does not specifically allow a for an out and they specifically direct that the batting order be collapsed when a player is unavailable to bat, it would logically follow that the batting order is collapsed when a player is ejected with no further penalty.