Dropped ball on a transfer after a foul tip and umpire's use of player feedback

[Central Cal Umpire]

I'm not sure how I would have handled this, but here goes: Watching a Cal Ripken 12U Majors game while waiting for the next game on the same field. Umpires in my area regularly work solo, as was this umpire I was observing. So, the umpire had no help on the bases.

No outs, no one on, two strikes on the batter. The batter swings at strike three. It's a foul tip, caught by the catcher. The umpire initially calls foul tip, then sees the ball was dropped. He changes his call to foul ball. The DHC yells that the catcher dropped the ball on the transfer. The umpire calls time and appears to be discussing something with the catcher. The umpire then changes his call to a foul tip caught, batter is out on strike three, stating the catcher dropped the ball on the transfer. The OHC and his bench are livid.

At the half inning, the umpire does what I thought was a smart thing, walks over to the OHC and allows the OHC and his coaches to vent a bit. I was sitting on that side of the field for the shade near the dugout gate, so I heard everything. Understandably, the OHC and his coaches are furious that the call was changed from a foul ball to a foul tip strikeout. The umpire said that he asked the catcher if he caught the ball cleanly and the catcher said, yes, that he dropped the ball taking it out of his glove. That's why the umpire changed it from a foul ball to an out on a caught third strike.

Here's the practical question: Does dropped transfer apply to foul tips? We call it all the time on fly balls and ground outs, but I've never experienced this myself, a catcher dropping a foul tip and still recording the out on transfer drop. Usually, when I'm behind the plate, I just assume the ball was dropped.

Then the umpire said something I've never heard before. He told the OHC that he justified changing his call because, in his experience, at this age level, 12U and lower, the kids tend to be very honest with him on the field. He tells the OHC that whenever he thinks a batter is hit on a very close pitch that isn't obvious, he always asks the batter if he was hit by the ball. The kids will tell him, "Yes, it hit me," or "No, it didn't." So, the umpire basically changed his call because a player told him something he clearly didn't see for himself.

Is that something more experienced umpires do? Ask the player, "What happened?" and then decided a call based on what the player said? The OHC did not like this explanation and vented some more. He said that wasn't the catcher's call to make, that the umpire needs to call what he sees, not ask a player what happened. The umpire said this is something that he does regularly and that he affords the same courtesy to both teams, discussing with players what happened on a particular pitch or scenario.

Just wondering how I should handle a similar situation if it comes up, understanding not all things are ever equal in baseball.

[noumpere]

14 minutes ago, Central Cal Umpire said:

Here's the practical question: Does dropped transfer apply to foul tips?

 

Is that something more experienced umpires do? Ask the player, "What happened?"

1) Of course.

2) DO they do it?  Yes.  SHOULD they do it?  No.

[The Man in Blue]

Going to get this out of the way up front . . . 

 

3 hours ago, Central Cal Umpire said:

I'm not sure how I would have handled this, but here goes: Watching a Cal Ripken 12U Majors game while waiting for the next game on the same field. Umpires in my area regularly work solo, as was this umpire I was observing. So, the umpire had no help on the bases.

No outs, no one on, two strikes on the batter. The batter swings at strike three. It's a foul tip, caught by the catcher. The umpire initially calls foul tip, then sees the ball was dropped. He changes his call to foul ball.

Part 1 gives you a good guess to my response to part 2.  They don't want to pay a second umpire, then they only get one umpire's first opinion.

Edit to clarify: I have no issue with changing the foul tip to a foul ball once he saw it on the ground.  That is still him making his call.  Personally, I would have gone the same route and stuck with it.  My issue it what comes after.

 

3 hours ago, Central Cal Umpire said:

At the half inning, the umpire does what I thought was a smart thing, walks over to the OHC and allows the OHC and his coaches to vent a bit.

I am a big advocate for knowing your audience and adjusting your techniques accordingly, but . . . 

 

If the OHC wants to come vent, OK.  Don't go offer him therapy sessions for free.  Don't allow the ACs to join in for a group session free of charge.

I mean, I am being a hypocrite by violating my "know your audience" rule, because maybe this is a very relaxed place that this guy is "their guy" all the time (like my local rec park, they have two umpires who have been there for 30+years) . . . 

In general, I would say don't do anything that this guy did.  Ever.

Don't work alone.

Don't change your call if you don't know.

Don't ask the players (though I respect his relationship and attitude here).

Don't give the coaches the input, or an avenue for the output.

 

I am OK with using a player's reactions in YOUR observations, but I would never ask a player what happened while making my call.  Afterwards, during a discussion, sure, hear them out.  Never, never base your call on it though.

 

Yes, the kids are far more honest than the adults.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

I am OK with using a player's reactions in YOUR observations

Not picking on you (I expect you'll agree) but this is a great launching point for my largest development item this year:

ALWAYS use player's reactions on plays you're less than 100%.

As PU blocked by batter on a front side ball near their hands that you get sound of at least bat on ball.

On a runner bag touch after you wedged in for the swipe tag that missed and didn't get a locked in look at cleat to base.

Possible U3K and your partner isn't a help.

Read em all like a math textbook. Read it a couple times. PAUSE AND LET THEM TELL YOU WHAT HAPPENED. Things may be made very simple.

[The Man in Blue]

I was going to disagree with the math textbook part; I can read those things and re-read those things . . . 

 

[Coach Carl]

12U Rec in a friendly league or not, that umpire is running the risk of turning every close call into a vote of anyone who got a good look (and anyone else who claims to have had a good look, whether they did or not).  And the method of voting?  Yell the loudest and with the most confidence.  Chaos ensues.

I was working a 9U game with a play at the plate.  I didn't track the ball well and got caught with the catcher between me and the tag.   After mumbling something like, "Oh no, I didn't see the tag" (only I didn't say, "no") and delaying for what felt like 10 seconds, I gave a half hearted pump of the fist and called him out. 

I had no idea what to call and anyone paying attention knew I had no idea what to call, but the last thing I was going to do was ask the catcher and runner what they thought I should call.  

[834k3r]

On 5/11/2025 at 10:42 AM, Central Cal Umpire said:

No outs, no one on, two strikes on the batter. The batter swings at strike three. It's a foul tip, caught by the catcher. The umpire initially calls foul tip, then sees the ball was dropped. He changes his call to foul ball. The DHC yells that the catcher dropped the ball on the transfer. The umpire calls time and appears to be discussing something with the catcher. The umpire then changes his call to a foul tip caught, batter is out on strike three, stating the catcher dropped the ball on the transfer. The OHC and his bench are livid.

To me it sounds like a timing issue. He made the call too fast. If he slows down his call even one single second, he probably makes that call accurately and doesn't have to change it.

[The Man in Blue]

18 hours ago, Coach Carl said:

12U Rec in a friendly league or not, that umpire is running the risk of turning every close call into a vote of anyone who got a good look (and anyone else who claims to have had a good look, whether they did or not).  And the method of voting?  Yell the loudest and with the most confidence.  Chaos ensues.

I was working a 9U game with a play at the plate.  I didn't track the ball well and got caught with the catcher between me and the tag.   After mumbling something like, "Oh no, I didn't see the tag" (only I didn't say, "no") and delaying for what felt like 10 seconds, I gave a half hearted pump of the fist and called him out. 

I had no idea what to call and anyone paying attention knew I had no idea what to call, but the last thing I was going to do was ask the catcher and runner what they thought I should call.  

Coach, we have toyed with the idea before, but you are convincing it is my way to retirement:

UMP APP -- For leagues who can't afford to pay umpires, and tournament directors who want to pocket more.  Have fans scan the QR code to download the app before the game begins, select your game, and you are off and running.  You have your own "robo ump" on the field, as fans will simply vote for the preferred call on every play.  Powered by our patented, trademarked, and copyrighted UMP-AI*, UMP APP makes sure you never have to worry about solo umpire games, assignors who "forgot", or no-show umpires.  Why pay for one or two sets of eyes when you can have hundreds for free?

 

*UPMP-AI is purely a theoretical "someday" feature.  It is actually block-chained, crowd-sourced people.   

 

As for your predicament, I've been there.  Early on, I was make the call confidently, no matter how unsure you are.  Then be willing to get with your partner if asked (if they can give you the reason; don't volunteer it).  

[The Man in Blue]

I forgot to add:

 

By downloading UMP APP, all parents will receive a digital badge (to use on social media) and digital certificate that states they are sworn authorities on the game now.

[Tog Gee]

Once, in 10U I had a very young man in the box and a wild pitcher.

Pitch goes right behind the batter and he moves slightly towards the plate to avoid.

I heard nothing and the ball didn't seem to change direction but I thought it was really close to the batter's backside.

The batter said "Um, that hit me."

I said "Oh, that one touched you?"

Batter said "Yes."

I said "Do you promise?"

Batter said "Yes."

I said "Take your base."

[BLWizzRanger]

23 minutes ago, Tog Gee said:

Once, in 10U I had a very young man in the box and a wild pitcher.

Pitch goes right behind the batter and he moves slightly towards the plate to avoid.

I heard nothing and the ball didn't seem to change direction but I thought it was really close to the batter's backside.

The batter said "Um, that hit me."

I said "Oh, that one touched you?"

Batter said "Yes."

I said "Do you promise?"

Batter said "Yes."

I said "Take your base."

Had one about the same age.  The ball did seem like it hit him so I waited a few seconds to see his reaction.  The coach hollers out, "Did that hit you?" and the young man said "No, it missed."  I said to the batter and catcher before the next pitch, "You are too honest." which after a beat or two and a second thought, I followed up with, "which is a good thing...."  lol 

 

 

[834k3r]

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Had one about the same age.  The ball did seem like it hit him so I waited a few seconds to see his reaction.  The coach hollers out, "Did that hit you?" and the young man said "No, it missed."  I said to the batter and catcher before the next pitch, "You are too honest." which after a beat or two and a second thought, I followed up with, "which is a good thing...."  lol