Legal or Illegal Windup

[grayhawk]

https://x.com/PitchingNinja/status/1887471295517819359/video/1

Whacha got?

[Richvee]

One step backwards, one forward with the free foot. Pivot foot stays engaged. No hesitation or alteration. Starts in a windup position facing the batter. I don't like it, but I can't see anything illegal. 

[JSam21]

Eh... The step and turn to 2nd base sure does seem like a feint towards 2nd.

[Richvee]

17 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Eh... The step and turn to 2nd base sure does seem like a feint towards 2nd.

couldn't the same be said of a step towards first while winding up? 

[Velho]

Backstory for those interested. This is 5 years old.

Story published in mlb.com (for what that's worth) deems it not explicitly illegal but up to the umpire https://www.mlb.com/cut4/craziest-pitching-motion-ever-c303701370

[Velho]

52 minutes ago, Richvee said:

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

Eh... The step and turn to 2nd base sure does seem like a feint towards 2nd.

couldn't the same be said of a step towards first while winding up? 

Focus of the body never leaves home plate in a traditional windup - well, Hideo Nomo excepted I guess...hmmm 🤔

[Richvee]

1 minute ago, Velho said:

Focus of the body never leaves home plate in a traditional windup

Is there a rule that doesn't allow it? Maybe you can stretch "The pitcher must stand facing the batter"? But he begins facing the batter. 

[Richvee]

15 minutes ago, Velho said:

Backstory for those interested. This is 5 years old.

Story published in mlb.com (for what that's worth) deems it not explicitly illegal but up to the umpire https://www.mlb.com/cut4/craziest-pitching-motion-ever-c303701370

So he's not winding up like this every time? Does it now become an "alteration?"

[834k3r]

3 hours ago, Richvee said:

One step backwards, one forward with the free foot. Pivot foot stays engaged. No hesitation or alteration. Starts in a windup position facing the batter. I don't like it, but I can't see anything illegal. 

This is where I'm at as well. Maybe pick a nit and call it an attempt to deceive?

[Velho]

48 minutes ago, Richvee said:

So he's not winding up like this every time? Does it now become an "alteration?"

Not clear he ever tried it in a game.

[Velho]

53 minutes ago, Richvee said:

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Focus of the body never leaves home plate in a traditional windup

Is there a rule that doesn't allow it? Maybe you can stretch "The pitcher must stand facing the batter"? But he begins facing the batter. 

I was saying that in contrast to the retort about stepping to 1B as a contra to the argument that going towards 2B could be a feint 😁

(6) The pitcher delivers the ball to the batter while he is not facing the batter;

Define "delivers". Is he facing the batter throughout his delivery?

(4) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

Not having context on what's going on it's not unreasonable to tink he's going to 2B with the pivot backwards

(8) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game;

He's wasting our time right now!

 

 

[Richvee]

26 minutes ago, Velho said:

I was saying that in contrast to the retort about stepping to 1B as a contra to the argument that going towards 2B could be a feint 😁

(6) The pitcher delivers the ball to the batter while he is not facing the batter;

Define "delivers". Is he facing the batter throughout his delivery? 

lots of windups have a point where they are not facing the batter. The rule doesn’t say “throughout”

(4) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

Not having context on what's going on it's not unreasonable to tink he's going to 2B with the pivot backwards

bases loaded, classic  windup - RHP steps towards first  

(8) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game;

He's wasting our time right now!

yes!! Already put too much thought into this  😁

 

 

 

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, 834k3r said:

This is where I'm at as well. Maybe pick a nit and call it an attempt to deceive?

...where is the deception? From the moment he makes his first step, it's pretty obvious it's a windup and not a step to throw to a base. He just takes a roundabout way to get there.

I'd also point out that deception does not a balk make. There has to be a violation of some part of the rule. 

 

[Velho]

14 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

I'd also point out that deception does not a balk make. There has to be a violation of some part of the rule. 

To add, though same rules apply, technically we're talking illegal pitch and not a balk since F1 wouldn't do this with runners on.

 

2 hours ago, Velho said:

Not clear he ever tried it in a game.

Relooking at the video, he did do this in a game (or at least a uniformed, score boarded, scrimmage)

 

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

yes!! Already put too much thought into this  😁

One last look around, okey-dokey, time to move on

[Replacematt]

For FED, I call this legal. 

For NCAA and OBR, given their more stringent allowances regarding "alteration or interruption" in the past couple years, I see this being illegal (although my personal opinion is that that increased stringency is pointless and shouting at the clouds.)