end DH - substitution re-entry

[RBIbaseball]

NFHS 

DH (#9) for F4 (#18) in the 3 hole

Head coach comes to me and asks if he brings his DH into pitch, will that end the DH. I told him yes, he can play both sides and #18 can go to the bench.

He asks again if #18 can re-enter at F4 (as in not hit) once the DH is done pitching. I told him no, DH is over, but #18 can re-enter for #9 and play both sides.

He then asks if #18 can re-enter for another player on defense. I told him that #9 and #18 are locked into the same position on the line-up, and therefore can never be on either defense or offense at the same time. #18 and #9 would be replacing each other, vice/versa

I was very confident in my answer, and Coach took my explanation and was satisfied.

 

Turns out 1st base coach asked my BU partner the same question that half-inning, and he told the coach that #18 can re-enter once - for any player.

 

So now next half inning, head coach walks to BU and asks him the same question. I walk over as BU is explaining. I correct BU in a clarifying way (like we are all saying the same thing, just misunderstanding - even though I know we weren't). BU realizes this and doesn't fight me on it and rolls with it. Coach is satisfied.

 

Anyways, after the game he thinks he's right, I think I'm right, and admittedly we both aren't 100%

 

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, RBIbaseball said:

NFHS 

DH (#9) for F4 (#18) in the 3 hole

Head coach comes to me and asks if he brings his DH into pitch, will that end the DH. I told him yes, he can play both sides and #18 can go to the bench.

He asks again if #18 can re-enter at F4 (as in not hit) once the DH is done pitching. I told him no, DH is over, but #18 can re-enter for #9 and play both sides.

He then asks if #18 can re-enter for another player on defense. I told him that #9 and #18 are locked into the same position on the line-up, and therefore can never be on either defense or offense at the same time. #18 and #9 would be replacing each other, vice/versa

I was very confident in my answer, and Coach took my explanation and was satisfied.

 

Turns out 1st base coach asked my BU partner the same question that half-inning, and he told the coach that #18 can re-enter once - for any player.

 

So now next half inning, head coach walks to BU and asks him the same question. I walk over as BU is explaining. I correct BU in a clarifying way (like we are all saying the same thing, just misunderstanding - even though I know we weren't). BU realizes this and doesn't fight me on it and rolls with it. Coach is satisfied.

 

Anyways, after the game he thinks he's right, I think I'm right, and admittedly we both aren't 100%

 

 

Why would you not be 100% ? Can your partner cite a rule, assuming he has a rule book?

[RBIbaseball]

25 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Why would you not be 100% ? Can your partner cite a rule, assuming he has a rule book?

I'll be honest, I had a long weekend. This was the last game of the weekend, and I just drove home after. I'm sure there is a case play if not explicit in the rules, but I haven't looked it up yet and just posted instead.
 

But also... I am surrounded by umpires that don't know rules. I am the new guy. I have a rap for "thinking too much into it".

 

Same day, I call interference on a thrown ball. As I'm explaining to the coach that I judged the kid intentionally interferes, he walks up to "back me up". He then tells the coach it was unintentional, but it doesn't matter - the call is the call - etc etc. ... like I had it 100% under control. Anyways no harm no foul for the coach.

 

But after the game, I explained to him that on a throw ball there need be intent. We argued for 10 min, citing rules. He simply read the "definition of inference" and said see, intent isn't even mentioned. I was like, ya that's the definition, now here's the rules and how its applied, and cite the rule. He tells me I don't understand. He calls the assignor "we'll call the boss right now". Assignor answers the phone and backs the guy up saying there doesn't need to be intent. Guy lights up like a Christmas tree. I explain on speaker phone that a thrown ball needs intent, versus batter interference or interference with a batted ball, which doesn't. Assignor says something like, "you always have to judge whether the play was hindered, there is always judgement, whether there's intentional or unintentional", then goes on to tell me I'm reading too far into the rules and I just need to umpire.

They are all nice guys and easy to work with, but I am starting to get really tired of it and feel like I'm being held back. I hope this NAIA thing I'm pursuing for next year works out.

/endrant

[SeeingEyeDog]

24 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

I'll be honest, I had a long weekend. This was the last game of the weekend, and I just drove home after. I'm sure there is a case play if not explicit in the rules, but I haven't looked it up yet and just posted instead.
 

But also... I am surrounded by umpires that don't know rules. I am the new guy. I have a rap for "thinking too much into it".

 

Same day, I call interference on a thrown ball. As I'm explaining to the coach that I judged the kid intentionally interferes, he walks up to "back me up". He then tells the coach it was unintentional, but it doesn't matter - the call is the call - etc etc. ... like I had it 100% under control. Anyways no harm no foul for the coach.

 

But after the game, I explained to him that on a throw ball there need be intent. We argued for 10 min, citing rules. He simply read the "definition of inference" and said see, intent isn't even mentioned. I was like, ya that's the definition, now here's the rules and how its applied, and cite the rule. He tells me I don't understand. He calls the assignor "we'll call the boss right now". Assignor answers the phone and backs the guy up saying there doesn't need to be intent. Guy lights up like a Christmas tree. I explain on speaker phone that a thrown ball needs intent, versus batter interference or interference with a batted ball, which doesn't. Assignor says something like, "you always have to judge whether the play was hindered, there is always judgement, whether there's intentional or unintentional", then goes on to tell me I'm reading too far into the rules and I just need to umpire.

They are all nice guys and easy to work with, but I am starting to get really tired of it and feel like I'm being held back. I hope this NAIA thing I'm pursuing for next year works out.

/endrant

Nobody asked me but...I don't know what your options are but, it's time to find a new association, brother. Or stay there for the next 20 years working to fix the culture at your own peril...

~Dawg

[Richvee]

19 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

I'll be honest, I had a long weekend. This was the last game of the weekend, and I just drove home after. I'm sure there is a case play if not explicit in the rules, but I haven't looked it up yet and just posted instead.
 

But also... I am surrounded by umpires that don't know rules. I am the new guy. I have a rap for "thinking too much into it".

 

Same day, I call interference on a thrown ball. As I'm explaining to the coach that I judged the kid intentionally interferes, he walks up to "back me up". He then tells the coach it was unintentional, but it doesn't matter - the call is the call - etc etc. ... like I had it 100% under control. Anyways no harm no foul for the coach.

 

But after the game, I explained to him that on a throw ball there need be intent. We argued for 10 min, citing rules. He simply read the "definition of inference" and said see, intent isn't even mentioned. I was like, ya that's the definition, now here's the rules and how its applied, and cite the rule. He tells me I don't understand. He calls the assignor "we'll call the boss right now". Assignor answers the phone and backs the guy up saying there doesn't need to be intent. Guy lights up like a Christmas tree. I explain on speaker phone that a thrown ball needs intent, versus batter interference or interference with a batted ball, which doesn't. Assignor says something like, "you always have to judge whether the play was hindered, there is always judgement, whether there's intentional or unintentional", then goes on to tell me I'm reading too far into the rules and I just need to umpire.

They are all nice guys and easy to work with, but I am starting to get really tired of it and feel like I'm being held back. I hope this NAIA thing I'm pursuing for next year works out.

/endrant

I feel your pain. Hang in there it will get better. When I started the one thing I prided myself on was rules knowledge.  I did a lot of games with “ sub varsity lifers”. - The guys who have been doing this for 30 years and still don’t  the rules and don’t want to learn them. Don’t sweat it. You will move up these guys will stay. 
 

I had similar situations starting out. I gave up arguing or trying to explain the correct rules to these guys. It was futile. I got tired of “ I’ve been doing this for 20 years  blah blah blah… or “ I used to do college” blah blah. Call your game. Come here and confirm things like this.  Keep up the good work 

[RBIbaseball]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

I feel your pain. Hang in there it will get better. When I started the one thing I prided myself on was rules knowledge.  I did a lot of games with “ sub varsity lifers”. - The guys who have been doing this for 30 years and still don’t  the rules and don’t want to learn them. Don’t sweat it. You will move up these guys will stay. 
 

I had similar situations starting out. I gave up arguing or trying to explain the correct rules to these guys. It was futile. I got tired of “ I’ve been doing this for 20 years  blah blah blah… or “ I used to do college” blah blah. Call your game. Come here and confirm things like this.  Keep up the good work 

It's just so frustrating. I'm in my 3rd year umpiring. Assignor sent 16 guys to district.

I've worked with half of them. Two or three of them are actually awful umpires. Mind blowingly bad at the varsity level. Poor mechanics, stubborn as hell with coaches, and lack rules knowledge.

 

This year I did probably 20 varsity or varsity/JV DH games, maybe 6 freshman. I'm 37 years old, I know how to work with people. I have no problem playing the part of the new guy and respecting experience. I ask questions and seek criticism and feedback (but rarely get it) and toss out anything that seems like bad advice. When experienced guys are wrong, I don't tell them their WRONG, I'm RIGHT, get good... I try to discuss the rule with them and give "my understanding" of the rule so they can explain where I'm wrong... I KNOW FOR A FACT those prodding questings get back to the assignor from these vets and they all treat me like I'm a new guy who just hasn't quite figured it out yet and too smart for my own good.

 

Anyways, I'm considering hitting up my nearby region and driving a little further for games next year. Idk if that's a smart move tho.

[Tborze]

On 5/20/2024 at 12:58 PM, RBIbaseball said:

It's just so frustrating. I'm in my 3rd year umpiring. Assignor sent 16 guys to district.

I've worked with half of them. Two or three of them are actually awful umpires. Mind blowingly bad at the varsity level. Poor mechanics, stubborn as hell with coaches, and lack rules knowledge.

 

This year I did probably 20 varsity or varsity/JV DH games, maybe 6 freshman. I'm 37 years old, I know how to work with people. I have no problem playing the part of the new guy and respecting experience. I ask questions and seek criticism and feedback (but rarely get it) and toss out anything that seems like bad advice. When experienced guys are wrong, I don't tell them their WRONG, I'm RIGHT, get good... I try to discuss the rule with them and give "my understanding" of the rule so they can explain where I'm wrong... I KNOW FOR A FACT those prodding questings get back to the assignor from these vets and they all treat me like I'm a new guy who just hasn't quite figured it out yet and too smart for my own good.

 

Anyways, I'm considering hitting up my nearby region and driving a little further for games next year. Idk if that's a smart move tho.

Why go somewhere else and have to start all over again?!  No matter where you go you’ll find those who advance based on who they know and those who put in their work, focus on what’s important and continue to improve.  
 

Have you considered running for Assistant/Rules Interpreter?  

[RBIbaseball]

15 minutes ago, Tborze said:

 

Have you considered running for Assistant/Rules Interpreter?  

Yes, I have. It's a daunting task because the assignor and a few of the top vets (there are a couple exceptions) have clearly expressed that getting into the weeds of the rules is "reading into it too much". Exhibit A from above: discussing Intent vs No Intent needed is "too deep".

I talked to my assignor when I met him at a playoff game and he's going to send me around the region more next year. He thought he was doing me a favor by not making me drive and seeing the same 4 teams over and over... 2 of them being awful baseball that would get run ruled by most other freshman clubs.

Anyways, seeing more coaches and partners will only help. I'll stay positive. In the mean time, I'm going to a NAIA clinic and working some travel ball this summer for the same assignor that does that baseball... so we'll see where that goes.

[The Man in Blue]

@RBIbaseball . . . I feel your pain.  After roughly 15 years, I still fluctuate back and forth between hanging it up because I am fed up with the politics and bureaucracy and finding new things to do. 

Truth is, you need to do what is best for you.  I'm like you in that I don't mind driving for new experiences, better partners, and better baseball.  My career change severely limited me during the MS and HS seasons, but really opened up my ability to travel for opportunities in the summer. 

I have completely quit softball in the summer (except for three high level tournaments I kept because I will travel out of state to), am about to quit softball in the school season (see story below), and have gone to strictly working summer baseball for one higher level group and one group that pays me damned well to travel out of state.  There just isn't much opportunity here, and what is here is aggravating at best.

As for advancing . . . hah!  Not here.  Not much college ball around to chase (my son drives around 2 hours each way for most of his games).

I also haven't been shy about the fact that I quit caring about HS post-season a long time ago.  This year I was more vocal about my reasons, but only when somebody asked me.  I refuse to play the highly manipulated "points" game that leads to post-season assignments.  A few weeks back, I bumped in an assignor (who I had major issues with this year) in the hardware store.  He asked about post-season, I reminded him I don't care.  He said, "You are good enough, you should be approaching state level."   I gave him my rationale: When somebody sees me work and calls me to say, "Hey, you did good!  We want you!"  Until then, I'm not chasing points by begging coaches, sucking up, lying about how many games I worked, and getting points for having points (yes, our system awards points for having worked post-season before . . . but you have to have the points to earn those points . . . 🙄).

Well, two days later my phone rang and I was asked by the state softball director to work a regional championship game on a 3-ump crew.  I accepted. 

The day of the game (this past Friday), the weather was starting to hit around 1:00.  I texted a partner (the previously mentioned assignor), to see what the back up plan was (i.e., did I need to make sure my Saturday was clear).  He informs me the host site decided on Wednesday to reduce it to a two-man crew (due to a forfeit and lost gate revenue) and bumped the game up -- they already played it Thursday.  He asks, "Didn't you check your IHSA portal?"  I asked why I would have logged in two days ahead to check a game that I was already assigned to.  Why wasn't I notified?  If it hadn't been raining, I would have left work and gone to the field.

Next Friday I am supposed to volunteer as the official book for two games at state.  Not sure if I am going to . . . If they can't bother to notify me my game was taken away, why should I volunteer my afternoon?

On a tangent note: Three local officials are working state: one should be there, one literally has an injury (plus age) and hasn't been able to move in three years (she works the bases from C the entire game -- admittedly I didn't work with her this year so things may have changed), and the third is a brand new guy.

 

I think you did hit on a major key though . . . TALK TO THE ASSIGNORS.  Don't let them assume what you do or do not want.  Whether they are worth talking to is another story, but don't leave your part up to chance.