Returning to a base

[TOMUIC]

The following question was asked at our recent umpire meeting. (OBR)

Batter  gets base hit, misses first base and slides safely into second. Time is now called. The BR walks back toward his first base coach and hands him his shin guard which was worn while at bat. The coach tells him to touch first base ,which he does, before proceeding to second base. When the ball is put back into play, the defense makes a proper appeal at first base.

Is the runner out or safe?

[beerguy55]

out.

5.09 (c)(2)

APPROVED RULING: (A) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (B) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base

 

 

This would be true even on a home run trot...if he missed first and passed second before deciding to do something about it, he would not be able to correct the mistake.

[TOMUIC]

As per the MLBUM “a base beyond or the next base” refers to the runner’s location at the time the ball  became dead.

[beerguy55]

18 minutes ago, TOMUIC said:

As per the MLBUM “a base beyond or the next base” refers to the runner’s location at the time the ball  became dead.

Show the source please.  I'd like to see the full text. 

 

I do believe that in FED they even have a provision to make an exception for the defense intentionally sending the ball out of play while the batter/runner has missed first and passed second, which would otherwise prevent the runner from correcting the mistake.  That is, if the ball went out of play unintentionally while the runner was at/beyond the next base, they would not be able to correct the mistake.

 

 

Otherwise, if the runner can correct the mistake, AND go back to second, that's....icky. 

[TOMUIC]

The most recent MLBUM I have is 2019. It is item 38 (page 24) in that edition . Like many others, I have not been able to purchase an MLBUM  recently. I know some members have a 2021 manual and it will be in that manual also. It’s been in all manuals prior to 2019 as far back as 10 years. 

[Velho]

We talked about this extensively for runners retouch (i.e. "tagging up") while taking their base award for ball out play.

Seems a stretch, without an explicit ruling, about extending that to a BR missing 1B and retouching under time they asked for. If it does, then umpires are in a tough spot because to say "no" would indicate the base was missed.

 

[beerguy55]

32 minutes ago, Velho said:

We talked about this extensively for runners retouch (i.e. "tagging up") while taking their base award for ball out play.

Seems a stretch, without an explicit ruling, about extending that to a BR missing 1B and retouching under time they asked for. If it does, then umpires are in a tough spot because to say "no" would indicate the base was missed.

 

Umpire wouldn't say ANYTHING in a scenario where the runner is not allowed to correct their  mistake.  They would only rule on the appeal.  Nothing is preventing the runner from touching first and returning to second.  The only ruling would have to come if a proper appeal is made.

OP doesn't say who asked for time, and probably doesn't matter.  The umpire granted time...to someone.

 

52 minutes ago, TOMUIC said:

The most recent MLBUM I have is 2019. It is item 38 (page 24) in that edition . Like many others, I have not been able to purchase an MLBUM  recently. I know some members have a 2021 manual and it will be in that manual also. It’s been in all manuals prior to 2019 as far back as 10 years. 

Found it at Baseball Rules Academy - don't know what year...may be splitting hairs...but the manual actually says "The "next base" or "base beyond" in this section refers to the position of the runner at the time the ball went out of play."

All the scenarios represent instances where the defense throws the ball out of play...though I'm guessing it doesn't matter...dead is dead.

So the closest thing we have to the play in question is scenario 4 and 5:

"Runner on second base, no outs. Batter hits fly ball to right field that is caught for the first out. Runner at second base leaves too soon. Runner slides into third base safely, but the right fielder's throw goes into the dugout. Ruling: Runner is awarded home. However, while the ball is dead the runner must return to and retouch second base. Furthermore, because he had already reached third base before the ball went out of play, the runner must return to second base before touching home (his next base). If the runner touches home, he may not return to second, and if the defense appeals he is declared out at second."

"Runners on first and second, one out. Batter hits deep fly ball that is caught by right fielder. The runner from second was running when the ball was hit, did not tag up, and proceeds to touch and round third base. After the runner from second has rounded third base, the right fielder throws behind the runner from first, who is returning to first base. The fielder's throw is wild and goes out of play. The umpires call "Time" and award the runners home and third. When the umpires call "Time" the runner from second is between third and home, and the runner from first is between first and second. At this point the manager yells to the runner from second (who is between third and home) to go back and tag up at second base. Is this permissible, or is the runner considered a "base beyond" the base he left too soon? Ruling: It is permissible for the runner to return to second base while the ball is dead. When the ball went out of play the runner originally on second base was past third (between third and home). The runner's "next base" is therefore home. While the ball is dead he may return to second base and retouch at any time prior to touching home plate. However, if the runner advances to and touches home while the ball is dead, he may not return."

So, based on those, the runner in the OP corrected his error, assuming we can extend these to ANY reason the ball is dead.

[Senor Azul]

In the OP the runner is out. Here are the applicable rules:

OBR 5.06(b)(1):  In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.06(c)...

Rule 5.06(c):  ...While the ball is dead no player may be put out, no bases may be run and no runs may be scored, except that runners may advance one or more bases as the result of acts which occurred while the ball was alive (such as, but not limited to a balk, an overthrow, interference, or a home run or other fair ball hit out of the playing field). 

 

None of the 8 listed exceptions in 5.06(c) allow a runner to return to fix a base running error. 

[TOMUIC]

SenorAzul,with all due respect, you have missed this one, please refer to the MLBUM cite that I mentioned earlier in this thread. You’r citing has nothing to do with this particular offensive play.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2021 MiLBUM (5.48, pp. 76-77):

When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left too soon after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base. A runner may return to a missed base (or one he has left too soon) when the ball is dead if he has not touched the next base...

The "next base" or "base beyond" refers to the position of the runner at the time the ball went out of play.

[TOMUIC]

Exactly, and he was already on second when the ball became dead, hence his next base is third base.

[noumpere]

I'm  not sure I can prove it, but I am reasonably certain that the "you can return to correct an error during a dead ball" applies only to an award, not to the OP.

 

(and, yes, I know that won't please the rule-book-language zealots; honestly, it doesn't please me either)

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2021 MiLBUM (5.48, pp. 76-77):

When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left too soon after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base. A runner may return to a missed base (or one he has left too soon) when the ball is dead if he has not touched the next base...

The "next base" or "base beyond" refers to the position of the runner at the time the ball went out of play.

As shown in the MLBUM references in my post above, since the OP runner was at second base when the ball became dead, his next base is third...he can return to first as long as he doesn't touch third base.

 

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

I'm  not sure I can prove it, but I am reasonably certain that the "you can return to correct an error during a dead ball" applies only to an award, not to the OP.

 

(and, yes, I know that won't please the rule-book-language zealots; honestly, it doesn't please me either)

5.09 (c)(2) covers appeal plays and only says this:

APPROVED RULING: (A) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (B) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base

There's no mention of an award restriction; this is purely about being able to correct a baserunning error while the ball is dead, and the limitation...and the only limitation appears to be about the next base after the ball goes dead, which in the OP's case is third base.

 

Edit: having said that, it just creates an odd and icky scenario.  B/R misses first, advances to second.  Dead ball.  During dead ball coach tells his pitcher to appeal...while the ball is still dead R2 returns to first, touches it...AND THEN returns to second?  Without a specific interpretation that limits this capability to award scenarios, this is what the rules appear to allow.   If nothing else I'd want the runner to be stuck at first after correcting his error during a dead ball.  He gets a free ride back to first base...he shouldn't get a free ride back to second too.  And maybe that could be justified by 5.06(c)

Rule 5.06(c):  ...While the ball is dead no player may be put out, no bases may be run and no runs may be scored, except that runners may advance one or more bases as the result of acts which occurred while the ball was alive (such as, but not limited to a balk, an overthrow, interference, or a home run or other fair ball hit out of the playing field). 

[beerguy55]

Correct me if I'm wrong...but let's say in OP, while standing on second, the ball is instead thrown out of play.  B/R would be awarded home.  However, when he returns to first to correct the miss, his award would then become 3rd base...right?  

Based on that principle, I think the correct administration of the OP is to allow B/R to correct his baserunning error during the dead ball (5.09 (c)), but once he does so he may not advance to any other base - he may not advance bases during a dead ball (5.06 (c)), unless there was an award, which there was not.

Anyway, tell me I'm an idiot all you want - that's a resolution I can sleep with, and defend.

[TOMUIC]

You are half correct, if he returns to first having left early on a fly ball caught his award will be third. If he returns to first to retouch because he missed first base, his award would still be home plate.

[TOMUIC]

Refer to 5.06(b)(4)(1) COMMENT (Last Paragraph)

[Senor Azul]

The "next base" or "base beyond" refers to the position of the runner at the time THE BALL WENT OUT OF PLAY.

There are 8 examples following that sentence in the MiLBUM--all dealing with awards to the runner and how the runner can correct a base running error after the ball goes out of play (and before he accepts his award). Here's the first example:

Play 1:  Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead).

Ruling 1:  He may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second; but if he touches second, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, he is declared out at first.

 

How does this example differ from the scenario in the OP? The runner in each is standing on his next base. Neither can legally attempt to return to touch first base--the base each missed.

[beerguy55]

7 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

The "next base" or "base beyond" refers to the position of the runner at the time THE BALL WENT OUT OF PLAY.

There are 8 examples following that sentence in the MiLBUM--all dealing with awards to the runner and how the runner can correct a base running error after the ball goes out of play (and before he accepts his award). Here's the first example:

Play 1:  Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead).

Ruling 1:  He may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second; but if he touches second, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, he is declared out at first.

 

How does this example differ from the scenario in the OP? The runner in each is standing on his next base. Neither can legally attempt to return to touch first base--the base each missed.

MLB UMPIRE MANUAL PROCEDURES AND INTERPRETATIONS (readkong.com)

Go to the above link and scroll to section 5.11  RETOUCHING BASES WHEN BALL IS DEAD

 

Particularly examples 4 and 5. In both cases the runner left second before the catch, and is either on or beyond third base when the ball goes out of play, and in both cases is permitted to return to second base to correct the error.   Because when the ball goes out of play their "next base" is now home.  If they were to touch home they would not be able to return to second.

"When the ball went out of play the runner originally on second base was past third (between third and home). The runner's "next base" is therefore home"

The only thing that differs in the OP is no ball was thrown out of play, and there was no award.  B/R is standing on second base when the umpire calls Time.  That makes his "next base" third.  

38 minutes ago, TOMUIC said:

Refer to 5.06(b)(4)(1) COMMENT (Last Paragraph)

I would suggest this does not exclude the missed base scenario from being treated the same way, it's simply an example for a more common scenario.  I can't fathom any reason why they'd be treated differently.

[TOMUIC]

Put simply, when a runner is attempting to return to a base on a caught  flyball he will be awarded 2 bases from his original base,  that is exactly what the comment says that I referred to earlier. However, when he misses a base, his award is determined by his location at the time of the release of the errant throw  or time of pitch (if pertinent)

[beerguy55]

39 minutes ago, TOMUIC said:

Put simply, when a runner is attempting to return to a base on a caught  flyball he will be awarded 2 bases from his original base,  that is exactly what the comment says that I referred to earlier. However, when he misses a base, his award is determined by his location at the time of the release of the errant throw  or time of pitch (if pertinent)

What do you have to cite that?

Let us say you have a runner between 2nd and 3rd base when a throw from the outfield went out of play...in scenario 1 he missed first base on a ball he hit, and in scenario 2 he left first base early on a caught ball.

In both cases the award is based on where they were located at TOT - in both cases the award is home.  And in both cases they are free to advance on that award, and in both cases they are at risk of being put out on appeal if they don't first correct their baserunning error.  And, unless there is evidence to the contrary, in both cases if they correct their error by touching first base, then the award is reset from the correction, and in both cases the award is now third base.

I'm asking you for the ruling/case play/interpretation that states that one is treated differently than the other.

Edit: I can see the logic - prevents someone with the diabolical plan of running on any fly ball in the hopes of the ball ending up out of play before an appeal is made.  Or, less cynically, prevents the offense from benefiting from their illegal head start.  I'm just looking for the supporting documentation.

Is the position that, since the MLBUM only specifically addresses the reset after the catch, then the missed base must not apply to the same restriction?

 

I would posit that the scenario is so rare - that is, runner misses first base, and then doesn't decide to do anything about it until after he has passed second base - that it's never come up to be addressed, and likely is never anticipated to need to be addressed, and that it's omission in the MLBUM or anywhere shouldn't really hold any weight to its meaning.  it simply makes more sense to keep the two scenarios consistent, even though one scenario has likely never happened, and never will.

[BigBlue4u]

23 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

In the OP the runner is out. Here are the applicable rules:

OBR 5.06(b)(1):  In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.06(c)...

Rule 5.06(c):  ...While the ball is dead no player may be put out, no bases may be run and no runs may be scored, except that runners may advance one or more bases as the result of acts which occurred while the ball was alive (such as, but not limited to a balk, an overthrow, interference, or a home run or other fair ball hit out of the playing field). 

 

None of the 8 listed exceptions in 5.06(c) allow a runner to return to fix a base running error. 

Also:  5.09 (c) (2) AR (B) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

[beerguy55]

4 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

Also:  5.09 (c) (2) AR (B) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

Read the rest of the thread...if a runner misses/leaves second base, and is beyond third base when the ball goes out of play, his "next base" is now home, and he is indeed permitted to return to second to correct his error, as long as he doesn't touch home first.

[TOMUIC]

Mr. Beerguy;

if a batter misses first base and is heading to third as a throw is released from the outfield which goes dead when he is halfway home, he can stop before touching home plate, go back touch third, touch second, touch first, and his award is still home, so he can continue to touch second, third and go home and score. That is it, please research that and you’ll see I am correct 

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, TOMUIC said:

Mr. Beerguy;

if a batter misses first base and is heading to third as a throw is released from the outfield which goes dead when he is halfway home, he can stop before touching home plate, go back touch third, touch second, touch first, and his award is still home, so he can continue to touch second, third and go home and score. That is it, please research that and you’ll see I am correct 

I've done the research...I'm not seeing anything to support your position.   Forgive me if I don't take your word at face value.   You can keep repeating the same thing over and over again all you want...that does not, on its face, make it true.

You either have a citation/case play/interpretation, or you don't.  Without supporting documentation, this exists only in your imagination.

This is not the first time your response has been "go do the research" when challenged on a position you couldn't support with evidence.  You're making the claim of certainty...the onus is on you to prove it.

[TOMUIC]

The reason that you cannot find a citation is because what you’re claiming is not part of the rulebook. Unlike the “specific award from his original base) given to a runner returning after a caught  fly ball (which is clearly covered in the rulebook), the OBR DO NOT contain a specific award given to a runner who “ misses a base and “legally” returns to it (while the ball is dead) to correct the base running infraction. According to the rules, all that matters is the runner’s location at the time of the errant  throw or pitch (if pertinent).

knowing what IS NOT in the rulebook is just as important as knowing what IS IN the rulebook. For example, the rulebook does not say that a fielder can kick a ball intentionally to another fielder in making a play, yet we all know that a fielder can certainly do that, we don’t need a citing  to verify it.

I would suggest that your research on this matter include speaking to others who are well-versed in the OBR. Don’t take my word for it. But in the end you will see that I am correct along with everyone else that understands the rules thoroughly.

PS: maybe another member can chime in on this to validate this commonly understood concept..