Drop 3rd runner on first less then two outs batter fakes run Dead ball or not?

[stormlight]

Hello all,

Often times at youth league games i see this scenario and I think it is wrong. Can someone clarify this for me.

Runner at first

0-1 outs.

Batter at the plate

Drop third strike happens.

Batter starts to run to first base or hard fakes to first (Because they know the rule that they are out)

Catcher throws to first (because they don't know the rule or are caught in the moment) and then makes a bad throw to first.

Runner that was at first takes off to two

Batter is called out by ump but also stops the play and calls runner back to first.

My understanding is all that should happen is that the ump should make the out call at home plate. He should not stop the batter from running to 1st and not call back the runner from 1st to 2nd as a drop 3rd with less then two outs is not a dead ball play. It's simply just an out for the batter and a live ball.

Am I correct in my understanding and are there any rules that prevent the outed batter from running to first or hard charging to first but stopping half way to try to get the catcher to make an errant throw to first?

Thank you!!

 

 

 

[beerguy55]

By rule, you are right.  The defense is expected to know the rule and act accordingly.  The ball is live, and there is no rule against the offense trying to draw a throw.

 

In practice, I can see scenarios in recreation/community leagues, and age levels that have just been introduced into the dropped third strike rule, where the umpires will take a more collaborative and educational approach and kill the play.   You would typically want such league to have that in their own bi-laws as modifications to the official rule sets.

[GiantEngineer]

I have seen leagues use a modified version with younger kids but not in that situation. 

[stormlight]

Thank you !!

By the rule does the runner on first need to tag or wait for the ump to call the out before they can run to second?

 

[MadMax]

8 minutes ago, stormlight said:

By the rule does the runner on first need to tag or wait for the ump to call the out before they can run to second?

No. 
Work this out… even with “closed bases”, wherein the Runners are prevented from making a steal attempt until the ball crosses the plate, a Runner doesn’t need to stay on a base (in this case, 1B), right? They can leave on a pitch. 

Even on a batted caught ball (line drive, pop, fly), the Runner doesn’t have to tag up or remain on the base; however, he is liable to be put on an appeal play for not properly “tagging up”. 

An Uncaught 3rd Strike (U3K) is a pitch, not a batted ball. If the Runner could have stolen the base (2B) on Strike 2, then why can’t he steal 2B on Strike 3?? 🤔

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, stormlight said:

Thank you !!

By the rule does the runner on first need to tag or wait for the ump to call the out before they can run to second?

 

I guess the question is, why would they have to?

You're either in a rule set where baserunners

• are allowed to lead off and attempt to advance any time they want...or
• can leave the base when the ball leaves the pitcher's hand...or
• can leave the base when the ball reaches/crosses the plate

In all those scenarios the runner is allowed to attempt to advance to the next base before anyone knows if it's strike three.

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

On 9/26/2023 at 2:33 PM, beerguy55 said:

By rule, you are right.  The defense is expected to know the rule and act accordingly.  The ball is live, and there is no rule against the offense trying to draw a throw.

 

In practice, I can see scenarios in recreation/community leagues, and age levels that have just been introduced into the dropped third strike rule, where the umpires will take a more collaborative and educational approach and kill the play.   You would typically want such league to have that in their own bi-laws as modifications to the official rule sets.

...and I would also add, this is also why at EVERY plate meeting the umpires need to state the rule set the game is being played under and THEN also ask, "What are your LOCAL modifications to the rules?" You then take what they tell you and play under those rules. I would also recommend you jot down notes in your book about the local rule mods to that game. That way, if there is ANY question later about why something was or was not called you can refer to your notes and adjudicate accordingly.

~Dawg

[Vegas_Ump]

If R1 does run, he is also in jeopardy of being retired!  Got to give the defense the chance to do that too!

Mike

Las Vegas