Angel Hernandez's Unlawful Discrimination Appeal Dismissed

[Lindsay]

The United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit dismissed plaintiff Angel Hernandez's discrimination lawsuit appeal against Major League Baseball, ruling in a summary order that despite a factual imbalance between white and minority crew chiefs, Hernandez's team failed to prove a statistically significant disparity in promotion rates, not to mention the case for discrimination or disparate treatment.

In 2021, a New York Southern District Court judge dismissed Hernandez's original discrimination case against MLB, opening up the door to appeal, when the court ruled that "the fact that no or very few minorities were promoted [is] 'statistically meaningless.'"

Related Post: Judge Dismisses Angel Hernandez's Discrimination Case (3/31/21).

That ruling itself followed MLB's allegation that there is "no evidence" of a diversity problem in baseball.

Related Post: MLB Argues No Evidence of Diversity Problem in Suit (6/8/20).

Regardless of where one stands on the diversity problem issue, the question is not whether such a problem exists, but whether unlawful discrimination or disparate treatment occurred in relation to the treatment of Mr. Hernandez, either by named decision-maker, then-Chief Baseball Officer Joe Torre, Peter Woodfork, or others in the Commissioner's Office.

And in sum, the court found that Hernandez failed to prove that element of the prima facie case, leading to the District Court's summary dismissal and, now, the Appeals Court's summary order of dismissal.

Video as follows:

Alternate Link: Hernandez loses unlawful discrimination appeal against MLB; case dismissed

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[SeeingEyeDog]

Can I just ask a very general data-related question without brewing up a political s-storm? Can someone please explain to me how many umpires in the history of MLB were hired as a full-time umpire who then at some point in their career did NOT then get promoted to crew chief? My guess would be fewer than 20% of all full-time MLB were not promoted to crew chief but, this is pure conjecture and speculation on my part.

And then as a follow up...I'd like to begin with Angel's resume: He is now 61, soon to be 62. He has been umpiring MLB since 1991 (not sure when he became full-time). He has worked 1 World Baseball Classic, 2 World Series, 8 League Championship Series, 12 Division Series, and 3 All-Star Games. What else would an umpire with that resume have to do to be promoted to a crew chief? I know each and every umpire is evaluated on their own merits with pages upon pages of metrics as well as more subjective means. In terms of post-season work, what are the average series assignments that all MLB crew chiefs have historically worked enroute to that promotion?

As for the jurisprudence...I am no attorney but, discrimination (whether it happens to someone or not) can be challenging to prove. You either have to have someone admit on the witness stand under oath that yes, they did not promote the plaintiff because of a person bias or have witnesses testify that they overheard someone say the plaintiff would not be promoted due to a personal bias. And even then could be dismissed as hearsay. An electronic or written piece of evidence could also help but not slam dunk the plaintiff's case.

In Angel's case...I don't know. I don't have all the facts. I just see a 30 year MLB umpire with some very good post-season assignments in his career and wonder why they haven't been promoted...

~Dawg 

[dumbdumb]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:45 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Can I just ask a very general data-related question without brewing up a political s-storm? Can someone please explain to me how many umpires in the history of MLB were hired as a full-time umpire who then at some point in their career did NOT then get promoted to crew chief? My guess would be fewer than 20% of all full-time MLB were not promoted to crew chief but, this is pure conjecture and speculation on my part.

And then as a follow up...I'd like to begin with Angel's resume: He is now 61, soon to be 62. He has been umpiring MLB since 1991 (not sure when he became full-time). He has worked 1 World Baseball Classic, 2 World Series, 8 League Championship Series, 12 Division Series, and 3 All-Star Games. What else would an umpire with that resume have to do to be promoted to a crew chief? I know each and every umpire is evaluated on their own merits with pages upon pages of metrics as well as more subjective means. In terms of post-season work, what are the average series assignments that all MLB crew chiefs have historically worked enroute to that promotion?

As for the jurisprudence...I am no attorney but, discrimination (whether it happens to someone or not) can be challenging to prove. You either have to have someone admit on the witness stand under oath that yes, they did not promote the plaintiff because of a person bias or have witnesses testify that they overheard someone say the plaintiff would not be promoted due to a personal bias. And even then could be dismissed as hearsay. An electronic or written piece of evidence could also help but not slam dunk the plaintiff's case.

In Angel's case...I don't know. I don't have all the facts. I just see a 30 year MLB umpire with some very good post-season assignments in his career and wonder why they haven't been promoted...

~Dawg 

absolutely the 2 biggest boxes that get checked for the job are, leadership and situation handling. those are not by the numbers categories, ie 96 correct for every 100 on pitches the last yada yada years, and 95 correct for every 100 on base calls the last yada yada years. those categories above are more subjective areas and i will stop at that.

if you will go look at steve the ump website he has all the crews since 1999 or 2000. if you look at the crew chiefs for those 2 years and then go to retrosheet and pull up those crew chiefs and figure out who their crew chiefs were when they were younger, you will eventually end up with all the staffs from years gone by and can figure who/whom eventually made crew chief and who did not.

remember, you have to apply for the job, so if you are not interested to start with, then you would not be considered. due to a lot of timing issues on retirements and where somebody falls in their own career, it is probably not possible to have everyone become a crew chief. obviously you might be able to do it, if you only let a crew chief serve in that capacity and rotate them out every certain number of years so that everyone gets a chance. just remember, not everyone is working WS and LCS all the time either today, since they dropped the rotation for those assignments quite a while ago, to go to a more merit based system which might leave some out entirely whereas years ago everyone would receive those events.

yes there are some who never made crew chief, but i will let you find those names from both before and after 2000.  it can be done and there are more than just one or two, but i would not know if your 20% guess is way high, way low, or somewhere in between

for the most part, crew chiefs work the plate on opening day for all the games, unless injured or out on early vacation, etc.

one had 6 LCS, 3 WS

one 4 ds, 2 lcs, 2 ws

one had 8 DS, 2 LCS, 2 WS

one had 3 ds 3 lcs 1 ws

added 8/18

https://www.cantonrep.com/story/opinion/columns/2010/01/25/bruce-s-history-lessons-cardinals/42605819007/

[beerguy55]

Angel has responded by putting his best foot forward.

 

 

 

[dumbdumb]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:45 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Can I just ask a very general data-related question without brewing up a political s-storm? Can someone please explain to me how many umpires in the history of MLB were hired as a full-time umpire who then at some point in their career did NOT then get promoted to crew chief? My guess would be fewer than 20% of all full-time MLB were not promoted to crew chief but, this is pure conjecture and speculation on my part.

And then as a follow up...I'd like to begin with Angel's resume: He is now 61, soon to be 62. He has been umpiring MLB since 1991 (not sure when he became full-time). He has worked 1 World Baseball Classic, 2 World Series, 8 League Championship Series, 12 Division Series, and 3 All-Star Games. What else would an umpire with that resume have to do to be promoted to a crew chief? I know each and every umpire is evaluated on their own merits with pages upon pages of metrics as well as more subjective means. In terms of post-season work, what are the average series assignments that all MLB crew chiefs have historically worked enroute to that promotion?

As for the jurisprudence...I am no attorney but, discrimination (whether it happens to someone or not) can be challenging to prove. You either have to have someone admit on the witness stand under oath that yes, they did not promote the plaintiff because of a person bias or have witnesses testify that they overheard someone say the plaintiff would not be promoted due to a personal bias. And even then could be dismissed as hearsay. An electronic or written piece of evidence could also help but not slam dunk the plaintiff's case.

In Angel's case...I don't know. I don't have all the facts. I just see a 30 year MLB umpire with some very good post-season assignments in his career and wonder why they haven't been promoted...

~Dawg 

the incident and article where Torre called Hernandez out on April, 30, 2001 in the NY Post, for a balk in the 5th inning on Andy Pettitte that did not lead to a run. It was a dinger in the 7th given up by Pettitte himself that caused him to lose the game.

https://nypost.com/2001/05/01/yanks-luck-all-brad-twins-radke-outguns-pettitte/

[SeeingEyeDog]

26 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

the incident and article where Torre called Hernandez out on April, 30, 2001 in the NY Post, for a balk in the 5th inning on Andy Pettitte that did not lead to a run. It was a dinger in the 7th given up by Pettitte himself that caused him to lose the game.

https://nypost.com/2001/05/01/yanks-luck-all-brad-twins-radke-outguns-pettitte/

Ok, so clearly this incident is not the source of MLB's discrimination against Hernandez...but, there is clearly a bias. Rich Garcia...1985...there is no explaining that with "performance".

~Dawg

[SeeingEyeDog]

On 8/21/2023 at 6:08 PM, beerguy55 said:

Angel has responded by putting his best foot forward.

 

 

 

Meh...a bad miss. Won't be his last one, certainly isn't his first one...

With only 76 full-time guys, we have to ask ourselves...why hasn't he been dismissed/relegated long ago? Oh...right...

~Dawg

[Velho]

When was the last MLB umpire removed for performance?

[SeeingEyeDog]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

When was the last MLB umpire removed for performance?

We don't know because that information is not publicly available. We see guys missing from crews all the time who are "dealing with an injury" or "family concern" or "on vacation". And most of that is legit but, we don't really know when it is and when it isn't. And we don't need to know. Life is already challenging enough for those guys without the whole world knowing they've been suspended or relegated and then coaches, players and fans are verbally weaponizing that further...

~Dawg

[beerguy55]

48 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

We don't know because that information is not publicly available. We see guys missing from crews all the time who are "dealing with an injury" or "family concern" or "on vacation". And most of that is legit but, we don't really know when it is and when it isn't. And we don't need to know. Life is already challenging enough for those guys without the whole world knowing they've been suspended or relegated and then coaches, players and fans are verbally weaponizing that further...

~Dawg

Players and coaches are publicly demoted and fired for non-performance every day.  They seem to be able to handle it.

I know Brian Runge was fired for violating the Drug policy.  I know of no umpire since that has been fired for performance...not in the past couple of generations anyway.  I'd say that is what led to MLB going "thanks" in 1999 when they all resigned.

[SeeingEyeDog]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Players and coaches are publicly demoted and fired for non-performance every day.  They seem to be able to handle it.

Oh! I could not agree more. And yet here we are with umpires operating under cover of darkness...

~Dawg

[BigBlue4u]

A good indication of an umpire's success is post-season work.  Check out retrosheet.org and you'll find a number of umpires with 20+ years of work and no WS or LCS experience.  That should tell you all you need to know.  Also, I don't buy the statement that some umpires do not want to work post-season games. Chances are they are not working because they are not being asked to work.