Foul Ball or Hit By Pitch

[NovaScotiaBlue]

OK, I have had this play before. Ruled as I thought I should BUT I wonder if I have gotten it right

Here's the situation. Pitch is up and in on a batter. Batter tries to bail out of the way but pitch makes solid contact with the knob of the bat (easily seen and heard by umpire). At the same time the batter screams and grabs his hand which was also hit by the pitch.

So, is this a foul ball, or a hit by pitch?

[Mr Umpire]

Depends on which happened first. Hitting the bat or hitting the hand. Hits bat first, foul ball. Hits hand first, HBP.

If he is swinging and it hits his hand, it is a dead ball and strike. Hands are NOT considered to be part of the bat.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

You have to figure BOTH occurred at the same time..He wasn't offering at it. He just could not get out of the way fast enough. I heard the distinct sound of wood so to me it was an easy call. However player takes off glove and appeals to me that it hit him. He does not do it in any way that is showing me up so I won't bring ejections into the mix. The batter offers irrefutable evidence that ball hit him(ball stiching marks clearly visable) Does this change anything? or is it still a foul ball?

[Umpire in Chief]

IMO if you judge it hitting him and the bat at the same time, and if he wasn't swinging or in the strike zone then give him the base. I had a Mustang (10 y/o) game a few weeks back where the batter was hit similarly. But because it was 10 y/o and the pitch was so slow I could see it very well the pitch hitting the hand and the knob. But it still made the ping sound off the bat. Gave him first.

Welcome aboard!

[noumpere]

Allegedly, this question was asked at one of the umpire schools many years ago.

The answer: It hit the hand first.

[Mr Umpire]

Did you or your partner see it hit his hand?

Theoretically, one or the other happened first. However, if it is not clear which happened first, then I would give him 1B. If you can distinguish which happened first, then go with that call.

Such as, if you can clearly tell the ball hit the knob first then hit the hand, it is a foul ball. Why punish the pitcher for the hitter not moving fast enough? The pitcher did his job and we do ours at the same speed of the game. Why can't the batter?

I would never eject a player for trying to show me his hand as long as he quit when he was told it doesn't change anything.

[jjb]

It's almost impossible to definitively judge whether it hit the hand first, or the bat. I like the old adage"When in Doubt, Punish the team that screwed up". If the pitch is in the batters' box, and the batter's not swinging, award him first: the pitcher shouldn't have thrown it that far inside.

[BrianC14]

Did you or your partner see it hit his hand?

Theoretically, one or the other happened first. However, if it is not clear which happened first, then I would give him 1B. If you can distinguish which happened first, then go with that call.

Such as, if you can clearly tell the ball hit the knob first then hit the hand, it is a foul ball. Why punish the pitcher for the hitter not moving fast enough? The pitcher did his job and we do ours at the same speed of the game. Why can't the batter?

I would never eject a player for trying to show me his hand as long as he quit when he was told it doesn't change anything.

Why punish the batter when the pitcher threw the ball where the batter was standing? (i.e., in the batter's box).

[Mr Umpire]

Why punish the batter when the pitcher threw the ball where the batter was standing? (i.e., in the batter's box).

The pitch is not necessarily in the batter's box to hit the bat/hands. But, the comment was about if the umpire can clearly tell the ball hit the bat first. Then, how can you punish the pitcher b/c it clearly was a foul ball? Again, not the pitcher's fault the batter didn't move fast enough.

If he can't tell, then he should award the batter 1B. This would go along the lines of "When in doubt, get the team who screwed up" as already pointed out.

[catoblue]

It's almost impossible to definitively judge whether it hit the hand first, or the bat. I like the old adage"When in Doubt, Punish the team that screwed up". If the pitch is in the batters' box, and the batter's not swinging, award him first: the pitcher shouldn't have thrown it that far inside.

My thought exactly.

[catoblue]

It's almost impossible to definitively judge whether it hit the hand first, or the bat. I like the old adage"When in Doubt, Punish the team that screwed up". If the pitch is in the batters' box, and the batter's not swinging, award him first: the pitcher shouldn't have thrown it that far inside.

My thought exactly. The stitch marks on the hand seal the deal for me.

[therefump]

A few thoughts on the "hit the hand(s)" vs. foul ball:

1) If you SAW IT hit the knob of the bat first then obviously it's a foul ball.

2) If you SAW IT hit the hands then batter FIRST then (s)he gets the base.

3) Remember there is no such thing as a "tie" on a force out then apply this to the Hit Batter vs. Foul Ball.

The umpire is the final arbitrator.

Automatically awarding a batter first is not a reward. You could be taking the bat out of the hands of the best player on the team. Who are you to judge.

Too many LL players up through major leagues want to get to first the easy way (BB or HBP).

[digo21]

Wouldn't another important factor be if the batter was holding the bat in the strikezone I.E. over the plate. If it were me and I really was not sure what came first. I would say he was hit in the strikezone avoid any kind of unnecessary arguments.

[Mr Umpire]

Wouldn't another important factor be if the batter was holding the bat in the strikezone I.E. over the plate. If it were me and I really was not sure what came first. I would say he was hit in the strikezone avoid any kind of unnecessary arguments.

Yes, if the ball is in the strike zone, then it does not matter what was hit first.

But, do not say it was in the strike zone just to avoid an argument. Do not make up calls or rulings which are not true. Our job is to call it as we see it or hear it. Our job may be difficult at times. Our job may be hated at times. Our job may suck at times. But, our job is to do our job as it is warranted whether the crowd loves us or not. We are paid to make the tough calls b/c we have no stakes in the game. We are not emotionally wrapped up in whether or not little Johnny makes it to 1B or not. The parents, coaches, and players are. But, we have to be the bearer of bad news at times and we cannot shy away from that to avoid an argument.

So, call it as you see it and not what you want to avoid an argument.

[mstaylor]

If it hits the knob of the bat then most of the time it i going to hit it first. Most batters have their hand on the high side of the knob. If it is higher up on the bat, then it likely hit the hand first.

Be careful about saying if it in the zone, it doesn't matter. With less than two strikes, this is true. With two strikes, if it hits the hand in the zone or he is swinging, it is a dead ball strike and the batter is out. If it hits the bat, it is going to be either a foul tip or a foul ball.