Force/Appeal

[Tborze]

R2, R1 0 outs.

Deep fly to LCF, runners are tagging up. Ball is not caught and signaled a no catch. R2 gets thrown out at 3B. R1 is still on 1B along with B3. 
The defense, thinking the ball was caught, even though R2 was already called out, appeal R2 left too soon.  
My question…

As F6 touches 2B on the appeal, do we rule only on the appeal or can we also call R1 out on the force?  

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Tborze said:

R2, R1 0 outs.

Deep fly to LCF, runners are tagging up. Ball is not caught and signaled a no catch. R2 gets thrown out at 3B. R1 is still on 1B along with B3. 
The defense, thinking the ball was caught, even though R2 was already called out, appeal R2 left too soon.  
My question…

As F6 touches 2B on the appeal, do we rule only on the appeal or can we also call R1 out on the force?  

You can have an accidental out. I'm guessing I would verbal no catch and no leaving early and signal out while pointing and verbally indicating R1.

[Mussgrass]

I will take my shot at this. 

I would say that there is no appeal to rule on because the ball was not caught. As you indicated R2 was out on the force at 3B. R1 is out because of being forced out at 2B when F6 tagged the base. That should probably be accompanied by a point at R1 while signaling the out. If the defense figures it out they may be able to complete the triple play if the BR has not touched 1B.

It may take a lengthy explanation to both managers so they understand what happened.

[Tborze]

12 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You can have an accidental out. I'm guessing I would verbal no catch and no leaving early and signal out while pointing and verbally indicating R1.

 

12 minutes ago, Mussgrass said:

I will take my shot at this. 

I would say that there is no appeal to rule on because the ball was not caught. As you indicated R2 was out on the force at 3B. R1 is out because of being forced out at 2B when F6 tagged the base. That should probably be accompanied by a point at R1 while signaling the out. If the defense figures it out they may be able to complete the triple play if the BR has not touched 1B.

It may take a lengthy explanation to both managers so they understand what happened.

Sounds good, thanks!

Here’s what I did. 

I signaled emphatically and verbalized no catch.  Unfortunately I had it all.  Partner didn’t rotate on several occasions. I’m going to be giving him a call. 
So, R2 gets tagged out at 3rd, I’m right there.  I hear the appeal and signaled safe on the appeal and pointed to R3 reaffirming he’s out. 
By then, F6 started running toward 1st. B3 then started walking back toward HP. 
I was thinking triple play (Mussgrass)

B3 gets back to 1st then before F6 tags R1, R1 walks off of 1st toward his dugout. That’s when  I pointed and signaled him out and B3 safe. 
Same result but…Now I know. 
 

 

 

[noumpere]

You can have an accidental force; you can't have an accidental appeal.

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, Tborze said:

As F6 touches 2B on the appeal, do we rule only on the appeal or can we also call R1 out on the force?  

There is no appeal.   The ball wasn't caught so nobody left early.   And there's certainly no missed base question either.

If they say "he left early" I assume your response is something like "there was no catch".   I think a safe signal confuses things here....mainly because the runner is already out anyway,  and if he wasn't there's nothing to be "safe" from, and R1 is in fact out with the touch of second base.

I think here it's a  point/verbal indicating that it's R1 who's out.

No intent required for force plays (or tag plays for that matter).

Did the defense say something to indicate they were appealing left early?...sounds to me, after knowing that R2 was out, they threw to second to get R1.

 

So, to step back, let's use a hypothetical that doesn't have so many moving parts.  R3, batter hits sinking line drive to the field...you call NO CATCH NO CATCH.   R3 very clearly to everyone including Stevie Wonder left on contact and had actually crossed the plate by the time F8 short-hopped the ball. They throw to third base to get the runner who "left early"...are you making a safe signal? That, at least on its own, can create confusion if everyone clearly knows he "left early"..."what?!?!  how can he be safe??  of course he left early"...or are you verbalizing, again, "there was no catch" or something like it?

You certainly ended up in a clusterF*#K situation for sure, through no fault of your own, but I think this is where words are a powerful tool to augment visual mechanics.

 

[Tborze]

7 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

There is no appeal.   The ball wasn't caught so nobody left early.   And there's certainly no missed base question either.

If they say "he left early" I assume your response is something like "there was no catch".   I think a safe signal confuses things here....mainly because the runner is already out anyway,  and if he wasn't there's nothing to be "safe" from, and R1 is in fact out with the touch of second base.

I think here it's a  point/verbal indicating that it's R1 who's out.

No intent required for force plays (or tag plays for that matter).

Did the defense say something to indicate they were appealing left early?...sounds to me, after knowing that R2 was out, they threw to second to get R1.

 

So, to step back, let's use a hypothetical that doesn't have so many moving parts.  R3, batter hits sinking line drive to the field...you call NO CATCH NO CATCH.   R3 very clearly to everyone including Stevie Wonder left on contact and had actually crossed the plate by the time F8 short-hopped the ball. They throw to third base to get the runner who "left early"...are you making a safe signal? That, at least on its own, can create confusion if everyone clearly knows he "left early"..."what?!?!  how can he be safe??  of course he left early"...or are you verbalizing, again, "there was no catch" or something like it?

You certainly ended up in a clusterF*#K situation for sure, through no fault of your own, but I think this is where words are a powerful tool to augment visual mechanics.

 

 

9 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

There is no appeal.   The ball wasn't caught so nobody left early.   And there's certainly no missed base question either.

If they say "he left early" I assume your response is something like "there was no catch".   I think a safe signal confuses things here....mainly because the runner is already out anyway,  and if he wasn't there's nothing to be "safe" from, and R1 is in fact out with the touch of second base.

I think here it's a  point/verbal indicating that it's R1 who's out.

No intent required for force plays (or tag plays for that matter).

Did the defense say something to indicate they were appealing left early?...sounds to me, after knowing that R2 was out, they threw to second to get R1.

 

So, to step back, let's use a hypothetical that doesn't have so many moving parts.  R3, batter hits sinking line drive to the field...you call NO CATCH NO CATCH.   R3 very clearly to everyone including Stevie Wonder left on contact and had actually crossed the plate by the time F8 short-hopped the ball. They throw to third base to get the runner who "left early"...are you making a safe signal? That, at least on its own, can create confusion if everyone clearly knows he "left early"..."what?!?!  how can he be safe??  of course he left early"...or are you verbalizing, again, "there was no catch" or something like it?

You certainly ended up in a clusterF*#K situation for sure, through no fault of your own, but I think this is where words are a powerful tool to augment visual mechanics.

 

After the game the coach even admitted they were appealing he left early.  I don’t know why!

Definitely had me confused for a minute.  I signaled safe on the appeal and verbalized he’s out while pointing to R3. 
Now I know I should’ve also pointed and called R1 out at that moment.