FPSR, TOP or TOI?

[Tborze]

Situation:  Bases loaded, 0 outs.   
6-4-3 DP ball, INT is called on R1. R3 and R2 advance before the INT.  

2 outs w/ R3?

or

2 outs w/ R2 & R3?

 

 

[Jimurray]

23 minutes ago, Tborze said:

Situation:  Bases loaded, 0 outs.   
6-4-3 DP ball, INT is called on R1. R3 and R2 advance before the INT.  

2 outs w/ R3?

or

2 outs w/ R2 & R3?

 

 

Is this a trick question? FPSR violations are always TOP: 

 

“PENALTY: The runner is out. Interference is called and the ball is dead immediately. On a force-play slide with less than two outs, the runner is declared out, as well as the batter-runner. Runners shall return to the bases occupied at the time of the pitch. With two outs, the runner is declared out. The batter is credited with a fielder’s choice.”

Excerpt From
2020 NFHS Baseball Rules Book
NFHS
https://books.apple.com/us/book/2020-nfhs-baseball-rules-book/id1485298477
This material may be protected by copyright.

[maven]

3 hours ago, Tborze said:

Situation:  Bases loaded, 0 outs.   
6-4-3 DP ball, INT is called on R1. R3 and R2 advance before the INT.  

2 outs w/ R3?

or

2 outs w/ R2 & R3?

I think the question suggests a common confusion, namely that FPSR = INT. That's not correct: it's a violation of its own, with distinct conditions for application and penalties. We get confused only when we think it's just INT + batter out.

One of the differences in penalty is that with INT, runners return to their TOI bases. With FPSR, as Jimurray points out, runners return to their TOP bases.

Another difference is that on a FPSR violation by R3 just after he has scored, we call out R3 and nullify his run. With INT, the run counts (and a different runner is called out for the INT).

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Tborze, an interference call can be made on a runner without it being a Force Play Slide Rule (FPSR) violation.
The FPSR mandates that when a runner chooses to slide on a force play, it must be a legal slide or he must get out of the way of the throw. Sliding is not mandatory. A runner may choose not to slide, but he still may not interfere. When a runner is guilty of interference under the FPSR, he is out and the umpire will also call the batter-runner out for his teammate’s interference—an automatic double play. All other runners return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

When a double play is obvious as in your 6-4-3 play, if a runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make a play, two may be called out. (See rules 8-1-2b, 8-4-1h, and 8-4-2g.) The FED umpire must believe the defense could have completed the double play had there been no interference. If he does not, he may not call out two runners, even when the interference is intentional. In this scenario all other runners would return to the base occupied at the time of interference.

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 9.3.2 Situation C-- While advancing to second, R1 is hit by a batted ball that prevents an obvious double play on him and the batter-runner. RULING:  Both the runner and the batter-runner are declared out. The batter is not credited with a base hit.

Also see case book play 8.4.1 Situation D.

[Tborze]

I was golfing at the time of my post with a buddy who questioned the FPSR. He was debating that in FED it is always TOI. My stance was if a force play existed at TOP the runners would return to their TOP bases. 
The CP you sited @Senor Azul seems to confirm my argument. 
But, you also stated, “TheFED umpire must believe the defense could have completedthe double play had there beenno interference. If he does not, he may not call out two runners, even when the interference is intentional. In this scenario all other runners would return to the base occupied at the time of interference”, which seems to debunk my FPSR at TOP theory.

So now you have me thinking!  
 

Situation- Bases loaded, 0 outs  GB to F5.  R3 scores as F5 steps on 3rd base, R2 slides illegally.  The umps declare that no other play was possible, so score the run?  

 

[noumpere]

7 minutes ago, Tborze said:

I was golfing at the time of my post with a buddy who questioned the FPSR. He was debating that in FED it is always TOI. My stance was if a force play existed at TOP the runners would return to their TOP bases. 
The CP you sited @Senor Azul seems to confirm my argument. 
But, you also stated, “TheFED umpire must believe the defense could have completedthe double play had there beenno interference. If he does not, he may not call out two runners, even when the interference is intentional. In this scenario all other runners would return to the base occupied at the time of interference”, which seems to debunk my FPSR at TOP theory.

So now you have me thinking!  
 

Situation- Bases loaded, 0 outs  GB to F5.  R3 scores as F5 steps on 3rd base, R2 slides illegally.  The umps declare that no other play was possible, so score the run?  

 

On FPSR -- it doesn't matter if a DP was possible.

On other INT -- it does matter

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Tborze, you did not tell us in the OP why the interference was called. Also, where and when exactly did the interference occur that two other runners were able to advance before TOI? You just told us that interference was called on R1. Both Mr. Jimurray and Mr. maven assumed it was a force play slide rule interference (an illegal slide) and answered accordingly. Was it a FPSR violation?

NFHS 2019 Case Book Play 8.4.1 Situation D:  With R3 and R2. B3 hits a sharp ground ball toward F6 who is pushed by R2. RULING:  Interference causes the ball to become dead and R2 is out. If, in the umpire’s opinion, F6 could have tagged R2 with the ball and then thrown out R3 at home, the umpire shall declare R3 out also. If it is apparent F6 was about to tag R2 and also would retire B3 at first for a double play, then umpire would declare both R2 and B3 out. If the umpire rules that even if F6 fielded ball cleanly he could not have retired any runner, then only R2 is out. When interference occurs, runners shall return to the bases occupied at the time of the interference, unless they had scored prior to the time of interference or were put out. (8-4-1h, 8-4-2g)

[maven]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

On FPSR -- it doesn't matter if a DP was possible.

On other INT -- it does matter

Another consequence of conflating FPSR and runner INT.

It's possible to have INT on R1 away from 2B—say, if he's hit by a batted ball—that would not be FPSR. I followed Jimurray in assuming that the INT occurred around 2B, which is nearly always FPSR. 

The OP assumed that 2 were out, which is always the result of FPSR, but not always for runner INT. So FPSR is a better reading of the question in that regard as well.

It certainly does matter for answering the OP's question—other runners TOI or TOP—whether INT or FPSR was called. If the former, it would be TOI, if the latter, TOP. And maybe that's the best answer to the OP's question ("it depends").

In practice, however, these enforcements often coincide (when the INT occurs prior to any runner reaching his advance base.

[Tborze]

Sorry for the confusion! 

My OP was to show my buddy that on a FPSR violation runners return TOP.  But because of your responses, I was looking for further interpretation.  So...

On a FPSR the runner slides illegally on a force play, and two may be called out.  But if no other play was possible, it is TOI?  In looking at 8.4.2 O, it seems two are called out whether another play was possible or not because of an illegal slide on a force play as @Jimurraypointed out and was my understanding.  Then @Senor Azulstated if INT only, which I assume no other play was possible, then it's TOI.  

Then @noumperestates, it doesn't matter on FPSR which seems to state that two are called out on the INT on a force play.  @mavenI may be wrong, but I believe you stated in the past that runners return TOP on a FPSR because a force out was possible at the TOP.  I may be wrong.  You also mentioned INT on R3 after he scored.  In reading 8.4.2 W (let's forget about the MC) and say he INT'd, how is this a FPSR violation?

I hope this is making sense.   

[maven]

16 hours ago, Tborze said:

@mavenI may be wrong, but I believe you stated in the past that runners return TOP on a FPSR because a force out was possible at the TOP.

Well, not to be argumentative, but I hope that I didn't say that, as it isn't correct and does not withstand scrutiny. The return of runners with non-FPSR INT is always TOI in FED, regardless of whether it's a force play.

No, the reason it's TOP for FPSR is that this is the more severe penalty. The strong emphasis on safety in this rule warrants the harsher penalty: the offense will simply never be permitted to benefit from FPSR violations in any manner, and no advance of runners is possible on such plays.