Umpire mechanics for tag-up from 3rd

[Guest jtech1]

Question about proper umpire procedure on tag-up play form third.  Babe Ruth level, but probably the same at all levels.

Situation: Runner on third.  Fly ball to left.  Runner comes back to bag to tag after catch.  I am 3rd base coach... shoulder to shoulder with runner, watching left field.  When ball hits glove I say GO, runner goes home. He is smart and fast and I am sure left the bag within a split second of the ball contacting the glove.  Touched home a few seconds before the ball arrived.  No play at the plate.  Opposing coaches think he left early and complain.  Plate umpire puts hand in air calling runner out, without the ball ever being throw to third, base tagged and appeal asked for.  I respectfully question the call and why he made it before any appeal was requested and asked him to please confer with field ump who had perfect angle to see runners foot and the base.  He said it was his call as PU, and not appealable and would not confer with field ump. Conversation over.

My questions are:

1) He should never have made ANY call unless the opposing team threw to third, asked for an appeal, and he was 100% sure the runner left early.  Is this correct?

2) Did I have the right to ask the field ump myself?  Or is there such a thing as a non-appealable play like that... or was the PU just more concerned with his ego?  (he already told all coaches at the pre-game conferenced that we are welcome to ask him about any play but the call will not change... so the implication is that he is always right even if he is wrong about a rule... a poor attitude for a youth baseball umpire, in my opinion.

I would appreciate any feedback for future reference.  Thank you!

[Guest additional comment]

Just to be clear.. in question above, I am not talking about being right or wrong with respect to judgement calls...  I am talking about cases where he is wrong about a rule itself... seems a youth umpire, especially, should be open to discussion, ensuring they are correct about the rules and making the right call if they made a rule mistake.  Almost all I have ever worked with are.  But every now and then...

[The Man in Blue]

I'm operating under the assumption that you misspoke above with "Runner comes back to bag to tag after catch.  I am 3rd base coach... shoulder to shoulder with runner, watching left field.  When ball hits glove I say GO, runner goes home."

Operating under a proper tag up and using an older Babe Ruth manual ...

... a verbal appeal is allowable.  You say the other team is "complaining" about the runner leaving early.  Personally, I prefer something a little more direct, but I can realistically envision an umpire considering that a verbal appeal.

In standard 2-man mechanics, the PU is responsible for the tag up at third, even if he is also taking the fly ball.  A good PU is lining up the elements so he can see both.

That said ... your best course of action would have been to offer a reason for the PU to go to his partner.  Just my personal technique, but this is what I "coach" coaches to do.  "Blue, I know that is your call and how it probably looked there, but it seems like you might have been straightlined on the runner actually leaving the base.  Any chance you could confer with your partner?"

From the old (2015) Babe Ruth manual I found online: Rule 9.02(c) Comment: A manager is permitted to ask the umpires for an explanation of the play and how the umpires have exercised their discretion to eliminate the results and consequences 84 of the earlier call that the umpires are reversing. Once the umpires explain the result of the play, however, no one is permitted to argue that the umpires should have exercised their discretion in a difference manner.  (Sounds like his pre-game instructions come pretty directly from this.)

If he says "no, it is my call" -- well you really don't have much after that.  Personally, I will always entertain the request if there is a valid reason.  That said, "I don't like the call" or "I just think you are wrong" are NOT reasons.  Umpires should not entertain EVERY notion that they need to get together and should shut down fishing expeditions, but they should also show they are out there trying to get it right.

[Guest jtech1]

Yes, sorry... I could have worded that sentence better... runner comes back to bag while ball is in the air, in order to tag up after catch...

I appreciate your feedback... just being open to talking with his partner to ensure they both got the call right was all I was hoping for.  I will actually be jumping in to umpiring next year so I am sure I will gain new perspectives on what I have seen for years as a coach... I have always been respectful as a coach.. never raised my voice or had an argument with an umpire.  And with very few exceptions I have been lucky to work with umpires who have the same respect for the coaches on the field.  A case like this, where I felt disrespected right from the start, is rare and unfortunate.

[noumpere]

This is PU's cal all the way, and there's no reason to go to BU on this; it's entirely judgment and not a rules issue.  It's no different from BU making a ruling on a play at first (with no extraneous info like F3 holding the bag or dropping the ball) and a coach asking BU to confer with PU.

On the appeal itself -- some codes allow a verbal appeal, which was made.  Some require the base (or runner) to be tagged to make the appeal.  Even if PU messed this up for this level, it's a minor thing -- 99 and 44/100 percent of the time, the appeal would be made correctly even if PU reversed his out call and now waited for the appeal.

[humanbackstop19]

If protests are allowed at this level or association, go through the proper procedures is you think a rule has been misapplied.  In this case (if allowed), you could protest it was not a proper appeal if verbal live-ball appeals are not allowed.  Personally, the coach's announcement that R3 left early is an acceptable appeal if verbals are allowed.  

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, Guest jtech1 said:

Yes, sorry... I could have worded that sentence better... runner comes back to bag while ball is in the air, in order to tag up after catch...

I appreciate your feedback... just being open to talking with his partner to ensure they both got the call right was all I was hoping for.  I will actually be jumping in to umpiring next year so I am sure I will gain new perspectives on what I have seen for years as a coach... I have always been respectful as a coach.. never raised my voice or had an argument with an umpire.  And with very few exceptions I have been lucky to work with umpires who have the same respect for the coaches on the field.  A case like this, where I felt disrespected right from the start, is rare and unfortunate.

We look forward to having you in the ranks!  Now quit being a "guest" and register here!  😁

As with many things, "going for help" is a balancing act.  IMO, a good umpire will never deny a reasonable request and will always shut down fishing expeditions.

So what is reasonable?  Again, every individual will be different but the things I consider:

• Known positioning issues (e.g., pulled foot or tag with BU in "C")
• I recognize there may be something I didn't get and there is a chance my partner did (e.g., maybe I lined up wrong on your tag play and straight lined myself on the runner releasing the base
• I recognize there may have been an impediment to my view (e.g., a player screened me at the moment of the play)
• An unusual play or rule application that would benefit from us getting together

My other major point of emphasis is to never grant an "appeal to the other guy."  I take the opportunity to explain:

• Umpires know there are times that we don't have the best look at the play.
• Appeal plays are very specific things in the rule book.  This is not an appeal, but I will gladly get with my partner to make sure I have all the information.
• We don't "overrule" one another.  We'll get together and I'll let you know what I come back with.

The major faux pas a coach can make with me is going to the other umpire to complain.  If I made the call, you should come to me for an explanation first and we will go from there.  If you go running to my partner on my call (I don't care if they are closer) or come running to me on my partner's call, that tells me you just don't like it and want to play "mom vs. dad" so you can try to have it your way.  This isn't Burger King.

 

I can appreciate your comment about feeling disrespected.  Unfortunately it happens, but I am glad that you recognize that.  It will go a long way to helping you when you do strap on the gear.  As you said, there are some umpires who are very authoritarian on the field ... but then there are some that are too wishy washy.  Find a good balance.   

[Dottelife]

22 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

The major faux pas a coach can make with me is going to the other umpire to complain.  If I made the call, you should come to me for an explanation first and we will go from there.  If you go running to my partner on my call (I don't care if they are closer) or come running to me on my partner's call, that tells me you just don't like it and want to play "mom vs. dad" so you can try to have it your way.  This isn't Burger King.  

Excellent post and 100% agree. You go to my partner first to cry about a call I made!!! The only thing that better come out of my partners mouth is “coach you need to address that with my partner.”  It’s amazing how many times a coach will try to play us against each other. This isn’t Burger King lol love it 

[Guest Official, not umpire]

Most umpires will listen to reason and will get together to discuss on a reasonable question from a coach, but there are some who are my-way-or-the-highway.  Recently, after my son's 12U tournament game, I watched the end of the championship 13U game that turned out to have an umpire kick a game-deciding pair of calls and refuse to consider that he may have been wrong.

Tie game, time expired (play the inning), 6th inning, tournament championship match.  1 out, R3, BR hits fly ball to center side of left-center (clearly in the cone).  F7 called off F8, and dove and trapped the ball on a non-obvious bounce.  BU made no-catch/safe motion but PU made catch/out motion and yelled "out".  Nonetheless, because of the risk of catch, R3 waited for the touch appropriately and tagged up, easily scoring...  but PU made no signal, VTHC notices and tells his pitcher to put the ball in play then step off and throw over to third for appeal, where PU calls R3 out as well to end the inning.  HTHC keeps his cool (I don't know how) and asks PU respectfully if he would consider talking to his partner for either call because of the difficulty of getting both catch-no catch on a trap *and* leaving the base early correct, and the answer was firmly "no, I called what I called and I'm the crew chief" quite publicly and loudly (obviously meant for more than just the coach to hear).

TD had been watching (since it was the last game being played) and called both umpires over to have a conference during the inning switch.  After that conference, he told the coaches that he talked to the umpires, heard that the BU had no-catch, PU had catch, and PU had leaving early.  He told the coaches that while both he (TD) and the BU saw the no-catch, the PU was not considering / refusing to change his call and their rules had PU as the chief, so the calls would stand.

VTHC got a run the next inning and won the game by holding the HT in the bottom of the inning.  HTHC walked over to talk to the PU after the game, said something quietly, and the PU pointed at both coaches and said "you're both out of here!"  The HTAC looked surprised, hadn't said a word.  After the game, some of the parents were immediately viewing the video from GameChanger and were barking at the umpires that they had video proof the runner had not left early, even if it was a catch.

On top of it, the umpire didn't get out of there right away, he sat at the tournament table at the park's entrance.  One parent told him that he had been horrible the entire game, and the BU smiled in return and yelled "F*&k you too!"  These weren't fly by night umpires, they were MSHSAA patched umpires, which floored me.  I told the TD that I really hoped he wouldn't consider having that umpire ever work again - it was completely outrageous what I witnessed that day.

A good umpire remembers that he is human, as well as the coaches and the players.  I'm not an umpire but I do officiate basketball, and try to remember that when I've got hot coaches on my rear.

[The Man in Blue]

Ahhh ... MHSHAA explains it all.  I drive through Missouri all too often.  Have you seen the billboards they put up?  😉

[Velho]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

Have you seen the billboards they put up? 

I haven't. Can you show me?

[JonnyCat]

48 minutes ago, Velho said:

I haven't. Can you show me?

I'd like to see that, too.

[The Man in Blue]

The highway in Missouri is full of porn, pastoral fire, and politics.

[Guest jtech]

I really appreciate everyone's feedback here.  Learning a lot.  And I agree... I hope to find a good balance between too wishy-washy (I have seen that at younger ages, to the point where I was dictating calls) and too firm (where considering that I may have mis-applied a rule is a possibility).

I tried to register, but it seems the security check is broken... correct answers but always fails.

As for jumping in to umpiring next year, I am debating where to begin... I have coached for 23 years at all ages and both baseball and softball... and my first thought was to start at younger age... 10-12... but thinking back, that was a time when coaches and parents seemed to be even less forgiving of umpire mistakes...

[JonnyCat]

On 6/10/2022 at 9:36 AM, The Man in Blue said:

The highway in Missouri is full of porn, pastoral fire, and politics.

And that's different from any other state exactly? I doubt billboards have any correlation to umpires being dicks.

[The Man in Blue]

🙄

Ok … there are three billboards outside Ebbing, MO and that duck umpire just called my kid out on three strikes outside the plate.

Correlation enough?  

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

🙄

Ok … there are three billboards outside Ebbing, MO and that duck umpire just called my kid out on three strikes outside the plate.

Correlation enough?  

No, not really. What exactly do you mean?