Batting out of turn + substitutions

[Guest Justin]

Summer ball, OBR with minor differences irrelevant to this play, I was a spectator who happened to be keeping score.

Home team's batting order is A1 through A9 in order. A8 is the DH since this may become relevant.

In the bottom of the 5th, A5 bats in A4's place. He hits into a double play to end the inning, so the visiting team says nothing.

To lead off the bottom of the 6th, A10 comes in as a pinch hitter and strikes out. The next batter after him is A6. After one pitch, the visiting manager comes out to argue something with the umpires (I'm not sure exactly what, but he brought out his lineup card so I can make an assumption.) A6 remains in the game and strikes out, followed by pinch hitter A11 who grounds out.

A10, A11, and A12 come out on defense in the top of the 7th, replacing A4, A6, and A7. The visiting manager comes out for another chat, but nothing comes of it. The rest of the game went smoothly (A8 led off the bottom of the 7th, but the visiting team said nothing about it. The home team won in 8½ innings with their last batter being A3, so we didn't get any more arguments.)

[noumpere]

Was A10 an ANNOUNCED sub for A5?  Probably, so that makes A10 BOO for A6 -- A6 should have been out, and A7 should be the next batter.  Since the coach didn't bring this to the umpire's attention until after a pitch to A6, that legitimized A10's at bat and now A6 is the proper batter.  IT sounds as if the rest of the lineup was followed after that.

[agdz59]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Was A10 an ANNOUNCED sub for A5?  Probably, so that makes A10 BOO for A6 -- A6 should have been out, and A7 should be the next batter.  Since the coach didn't bring this to the umpire's attention until after a pitch to A6, that legitimized A10's at bat and now A6 is the proper batter.  IT sounds as if the rest of the lineup was followed after that.

I don't think so.  A5 batted out of order to end the 5th.  A4 was the proper batter.  So A5 should have led off the 6th.  What we don't know is what the home head coach said about A10 when he entered.  If he told the umpire A10 was pinch hitting for A5, all is good. I'm not sure about OBR but if the coach said nothing about A10 before he showed up in the batter's box, he became an unannounced substitution for A5.

A6 properly batted in the second spot in 6th in all codes.  Correct?

[noumpere]

3 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

I don't think so.  A5 batted out of order to end the 5th.  A4 was the proper batter.  So A5 should have led off the 6th. 

 

Since a pitch was thrown (presumably) in the top of the next inning, A5's at bat was legitimized.  That means A6 should lead off the bottom of the inning.

[Velho]

5 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Since a pitch was thrown (presumably) in the top of the next inning, A5's at bat was legitimized.  That means A6 should lead off the bottom of the inning.

I agree with this.

This all depends on who A10 was announced as replacing.

[agdz59]

32 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Since a pitch was thrown (presumably) in the top of the next inning, A5's at bat was legitimized.  That means A6 should lead off the bottom of the inning.

Ah yes, correct.

[bwburke94]

It seems obvious that the home team's intent was that A10 is batting for A4, but if the substitution is unannounced, intent doesn't matter and the PH is always for the proper batter. So we have two possible series of events.

• IF A10 WAS ANNOUNCED FOR A4: A10 is out of turn. After A10 is legitimized, the proper batter is A5, but A6 bats out of turn. After A6 is legitimized, the person A11 is batting for is A7. In the top of the next inning, A12 replaces A6.
• IF A10 WAS UNANNOUNCED: A10 is batting for A6. The next batter is A7, but A6 bats instead; this is an illegal substitution, not BOOT. Because A6 is batting in the seventh spot in the order, the proper batter following A6 and the person A11 is batting for is designated hitter A8. In the top of the next inning, A11 moves to the field which terminates the DH, and A12 also enters the game, with A4 and illegal sub A6 exiting. A12 bats either fourth or seventh, with the pitcher taking the other spot.

Obviously if A10 was unannounced and the crew knew what was going on, they would prevent A6 from batting in A7's spot, so that (and A8 batting in the next inning) indicates A10 was announced.

[noumpere]

19 minutes ago, bwburke94 said:

It seems obvious that the home team's intent was that A10 is batting for A4,

 

I think it was likely A5.

I agree if it was unannounced, then A10 actually batted for A6 and we have the subsequent substitution problem.  That said, at least around here, "summer" ball is often more relaxed and the right (if not perfectly by the rules) thing to do in those games is just go on with what would have happened

[bwburke94]

If A10 was meant to bat for A5, then why did A5 come back out defensively? It's either A4 or A6.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, bwburke94 said:

If A10 was meant to bat for A5, then why did A5 come back out defensively? It's either A4 or A6.

Ahh -- good point -- I missed that.

 

*Maybe* the team had the batting order as 1, 2, 3, 5, 4, 6.  *Maybe* they batted out of order earlier in the game, (batting 4, 5) and this inning (and the previous) was not correct.  Maybe what the team had didn't match what was given to the umpire (and sometimes that's not kept during summer) or to the other team.  etc.

 

Lots that we don't know about this (at least until / unless the OP clarifies) -- but we generally know how to get it right under the variosu choices.

[aaluck]

6 hours ago, Guest Justin said:

o lead off the bottom of the 6th, A10 comes in as a pinch hitter and strikes out. The next batter after him is A6. After one pitch, the visiting manager comes out to argue something with the umpires (I'm not sure exactly what, but he brought out his lineup card so I can make an assumption.) A6 remains in the game and strikes out, followed by pinch hitter A11 who grounds out.

This is the problem...

A10 substituted for A6 whether he meant to or not.  When A5 made the last out of the inning the 'new order' was established.

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

Since a pitch was thrown (presumably) in the top of the next inning, A5's at bat was legitimized.  That means A6 should lead off the bottom of the inning.

This is correct.  When the MGR came out on A6 the PU should have put A7 in the box 0-1 (assuming a strike).

[aaluck]

5 hours ago, agdz59 said:

If he told the umpire A10 was pinch hitting for A5, all is good.

He cannot hit for A5--actually he can, just not when he did.  A5 made the last out of the previous inning and as such the 'new order' was established as there was no appeal in THAT inning.  The next proper batter is A6.

If he was announced (for A5) he would be removed from the box and A6 would enter with his count on the coach's appeal.

If unannounced the PU would tell him he is batting for A6 whether he knows it or not.  

 

[beerguy55]

9 minutes ago, aaluck said:

He cannot hit for A5--actually he can, just not when he did.  A5 made the last out of the previous inning and as such the 'new order' was established as there was no appeal in THAT inning.  The next proper batter is A6.

If he was announced (for A5) he would be removed from the box and A6 would enter with his count on the coach's appeal.

If unannounced the PU would tell him he is batting for A6 whether he knows it or not.  

 

Man what a cluster...

I suspect that the coach did the substitution in an attempt to disguise the fact that F4 MHTAB...like you said, not allowed, and probably pointless...but keep this in mind...if nobody noticed the MYTAB/BOO happen...defense, scorekeepers, etc, then A5 IS the leadoff batter for the next inning.

As far as the lineup cards and scoresheets are concerned (again, if no one noticed) it was A4 who hit into the inning ending double play...so, A5 would be up...and it might raise alarms if A5 both ended the last inning and started this one...so, he subs in A10.

But the twist here is the OP says it was A4 who didn't take the field the next inning...A5 did....so now I'm thinking coach just thinks he can switch around A4/A5 in the order and have no one notice....for the same reason..."well, it's A5's spot in the lineup/scorecard, but people will notice if I bat A5 again, and might also notice if A4 bats, and I don't know if anyone really noticed if A5 batted out of order, so I better put in A10 in place of A4, have him bat where A5 should, and hope I get away with it."

 

[aaluck]

11 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

As far as the lineup cards and scoresheets are concerned (again, if no one noticed) it was A4 who hit into the inning ending double play...so, A5 would be up...and it might raise alarms if A5 both ended the last inning and started this one...so, he subs in A10.

Well that's a great point which makes it all the more confusing....

Now that I rethink this.... actually A10 DID bat for A5 (whether intentional or not) because once he struck out AND one pitch was thrown to A6 THIS became the new batting order (I think, I'm just confusing myself now).

As you said, IF A5 would have ended the 5th and started the 6th (same kid) and no one noticed until A6 had one strike that's the new order.

So I guess my assessment above was wrong? PU may have got it right and done nothing?

[agdz59]

21 minutes ago, aaluck said:

So I guess my assessment above was wrong? PU may have got it right and done nothing?

We will never know that because we don't know what the visiting coach brought up to PU.  If he never mentioned BOO, PU was right to do nothing.  If he challenged the wrong batter, PU would still not do anything.

[bwburke94]

1 hour ago, aaluck said:

This is correct.  When the MGR came out on A6 the PU should have put A7 in the box 0-1 (assuming a strike).

You don't put A7 in the box, because A7 has been substituted for...

[aaluck]

12 minutes ago, bwburke94 said:

You don't put A7 in the box, because A7 has been substituted for...

Correct. I should have said A7's spot or 7 hole batter.