NFHS- appeal situations

[JohnnyG]

Situation 1-1 out and R2, base hit and R2 misses 3rd and scores, batter advances to 2nd

For whatever reason, time is called and and the coach tells the pitcher to get on the rubber and to throw to 3rd when the umpire puts the ball in play. (We know that there can be an verbal appeal while the ball is dead and do not have to put the ball in play)

The ball is in play and the pitcher does not properly disengage from the rubber, balk, immediate dead ball (NFHS) we award R2 third (for the balk). Does the defense lose the right to still appeal the missed base?

Situation 2-1 out and R3, fly ball to RF ball is caught, but R3 leaves early and scores.

The ball is still in play and while having his foot in contact with the rubber, F1 places his pitching on his mouth and distinctly wipes off his pitching hand prior to touching the ball (Illegal pitch-a ball to the batter-NFHS)

Can the defense still appeal after an illegal? 

[noumpere]

Situation 1:  That might not be a balk.  F1 does not need to disengage to throw to third to make an appeal.  If F1 committed some other error causing a balk, then it's too late to appeal.

 

Situation 2:  To late to appeal.  An appeal must be made before a pitch legal or illegal.  Ref:  Somewhere in rule 8-2, if memory serves.  Sr. Azul will be along shortly with the exact cite.

[JohnnyG]

Thanks for the help. For clarification purposes, in situation 1, if the pitcher does balk then no appeal can be made?

[noumpere]

9 minutes ago, JohnnyG said:

Thanks for the help. For clarification purposes, in situation 1, if the pitcher does balk then no appeal can be made?

Correct

[maven]

Situation 1 can be prevented. When coach tells him to get on the mound etc., ask, "Coach, what are you planning to do?" When he says he's appealing the missed base, you can rule on the dead-ball appeal.

Why waste a perfectly good out?

[JohnnyG]

I agree it would be easier, but coaches should know how to appeal and I don't want to "coach" them. I don't want them to tell me how to umpire, so I don't tell them how to coach. I know circumstances change if you have a working relationship with a coach, maybe I'm Old School 

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, maven said:

Situation 1 can be prevented. When coach tells him to get on the mound etc., ask, "Coach, what are you planning to do?" When he says he's appealing the missed base, you can rule on the dead-ball appeal.

Why waste a perfectly good out?

That works when there are no runners on base.  But, with other runners (as in this play), you are depriving the offense of a chance to advance on a mis-thrown ball, or a balk, or ...

[maven]

24 minutes ago, noumpere said:

That works when there are no runners on base.  But, with other runners (as in this play), you are depriving the offense of a chance to advance on a mis-thrown ball, or a balk, or ...

Ordinarily, true, but here the ball was already dead.

4 hours ago, JohnnyG said:

For whatever reason, time is called

 

[maven]

49 minutes ago, JohnnyG said:

I agree it would be easier, but coaches should know how to appeal and I don't want to "coach" them. I don't want them to tell me how to umpire, so I don't tell them how to coach. I know circumstances change if you have a working relationship with a coach, maybe I'm Old School 

I'm not telling him how to coach. I'm asking what he wants to do. If he wants to appeal, then his saying so is a dead-ball appeal in FED. 

[Recontra]

(1) Count me in the camp that says it is not a balk to throw to a currently unoccupied 3rd base without disengaging. The throw is being made to retire a runner and to make a play at 3rd base (and if I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected);

(2) I also like live ball appeals. Count me in the camp that thinks dead ball appeals are for sucks!  😃

[Aging_Arbiter]

 

3 hours ago, JohnnyG said:

I agree it would be easier, but coaches should know how to appeal and I don't want to "coach" them. I don't want them to tell me how to umpire, so I don't tell them how to coach. I know circumstances change if you have a working relationship with a coach, maybe I'm Old School 

Yes, coaches SHOULD know.  I won't disagree with that.  However, I know several coaches who are the 9th grade science teacher, or the drama teacher, etc.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. JohnnyG, you raise a very good point with your questions. Both OBR and NCAA actually state in their respective rule books that a balk cancels the opportunity to appeal because a balk is considered to be a play (initiated by the defense). The FED rule book considers all balks to be illegal pitches so when a pitcher balks during an appeal that would cancel the chance to appeal (according to its rules 2-18 and 6-2-4c and 8-2-5 Penalty).

But let not your heart be troubled—there is help available. From the 2016 BRD (section 16, p. 29):

FED Official Interpretation:  Rumble:  A “balk is also an illegal pitch,” so a balk would cancel the right of the defense to appeal. (Website 2003 #6)

2003 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations SITUATION 6: With a runner at second base and two outs, the batter hits a single to right field. The runner misses third base and scores. The defense does not immediately appeal, and the ball is made live. With a right-handed pitcher on the mound, in contact with the pitcher's plate, the pitcher illegally turns his shoulders to check the runner. A balk is called, and the runner is awarded second base. With the ball being dead, the defensive coach asks for an appeal of the runner missing third base. Is the defense allowed to appeal? RULING: No, the pitcher's balk constitutes an illegal pitch and the defense loses the right to appeal the base runner's error. (2-3-1, 8-2-5 Penalty)

[noumpere]

16 hours ago, maven said:

Ordinarily, true, but here the ball was already dead.

 

Yes -- but the coach wanted to make it live again to make the appeal.