Crazy Obstruction Play

[RWPatten]

Bases Loaded. No Outs. I am UIC. Fly Ball hit to LF. Ball is caught, R2 doubled off at 2nd. I had the fly and R1's tag at 3rd lined up. BU calls obstruction, saying that the SS obstructed R2 leaving 2nd base after the ball was hit. BU sends R2 back to 2nd. Only one out recorded.

I did not see the obstruction in my periphreal vision. When the coach argued, I backed up the BU umpire. Needless to say, the coach was not happy and the fans let us have it. The team on offense got 6 consecutive hits before the next out was recorded, so the heckling pretty much stopped.

What are you opinions on the play?

[Mr Umpire]

Sounds like he got it right. If he felt the Obstruction prevented R2 from being able to return to 2B, then he gets 2B even if it was before the catch and who cares about the hecklers. Your partner would have heard it from the other team if he didn't call it. Pretty much, in this situation, its a win-win for the offense. If he does get back, then Obstruction is ignored. If he doesn't, then enforce the Obstruction.

If he did reach 2B and then tried for 3B, that would have been an interesting call. Would your partner protect him for trying for 3B or would he let an out stand if the runner didn't make it to 3B? That would have definitely been a HTBT situation.

[LMSANS]

:angel4:

If this was a fed game then R2 gets 3B on the obstruction.

[Mr Umpire]

If this was a fed game then R2 gets 3B on the obstruction.

I am going to have to start clarifying my answers to keep myself out of trouble. I keep forgetting how different Fed rules can be in some situations.

[UmpTTS43]

Under OBR, I would allow the out to stand. R2 was obstructed leaving the base as the ball was hit. I will probably protect him to third. He still has an obligation to retouch on a caught fly ball. If R2 was obstructed going back into second as the throw was coming in to double him off, then I would protect him to second then award third. Type A obstruction. In the original sitch, the obstruction had no bearing on R2's return to second, hence letting the out stand.

In NCAA, I would tend to rule the same way for the same reasons without the immediate dead ball.

In FED, R2 is awarded third when the play is completed. Delayed dead ball.

Try following my reasoning on this, maybe right, maybe wrong, still sounds good. Obstruction called while R2 leaving second. During play R2 is attempting to retouch when he is doubled off. More likely there will be no further continuation of the play. "Time, obstruction right here, you (R2) third base." If he retouches second then third, all is well. If he goes straight to third without retouching second, he is not allowed to return to second, per the rules. Appeal upheld for not tagging up properly. If at the conclusion of the play he is standing on third without an attempt to retouch, I have "Time, obstruction right here, you (R2), stay at third." Since a base runner is not allowed to go back to a base after he has reached the next base when the ball is dead, I will allow an appeal for not tagging up properly. All in all, the runner still has base running requirements, ie tagging up properly. If the runner was not able to tag up properly due to the obstruction, blocking the base, I would deny the appeal.

Let me know what y'all think.

[Mr Umpire]

At the very least, this may be a HTBT situation. Let's say R2 ran into F6 and as he cleared F6, F7 caught the ball. Now, will you hold R2 responsible to beat the throw? Plus, to me, the collision throws R2's timing off. I'm not sure I would allow the out but that is completely judgment and a HTBT situation.

[LMSANS]

Under OBR, I would allow the out to stand. R2 was obstructed leaving the base as the ball was hit. I will probably protect him to third. He still has an obligation to retouch on a caught fly ball. If R2 was obstructed going back into second as the throw was coming in to double him off, then I would protect him to second then award third. Type A obstruction. In the original sitch, the obstruction had no bearing on R2's return to second, hence letting the out stand.

In NCAA, I would tend to rule the same way for the same reasons without the immediate dead ball.

In FED, R2 is awarded third when the play is completed. Delayed dead ball.

Try following my reasoning on this, maybe right, maybe wrong, still sounds good. Obstruction called while R2 leaving second. During play R2 is attempting to retouch when he is doubled off. More likely there will be no further continuation of the play. "Time, obstruction right here, you (R2) third base." If he retouches second then third, all is well. If he goes straight to third without retouching second, he is not allowed to return to second, per the rules. Appeal upheld for not tagging up properly. If at the conclusion of the play he is standing on third without an attempt to retouch, I have "Time, obstruction right here, you (R2), stay at third." Since a base runner is not allowed to go back to a base after he has reached the next base when the ball is dead, I will allow an appeal for not tagging up properly. All in all, the runner still has base running requirements, ie tagging up properly. If the runner was not able to tag up properly due to the obstruction, blocking the base, I would deny the appeal.

Let me know what y'all think.

Sounds right to me.

[UmpTTS43]

Thanks to LSMANS

C'Mon y'all, lets get some feed back.

[Umpire in Chief]

If this was a fed game then R2 gets 3B on the obstruction.

The award for obstruction in fed is at least one base.

So taking this a step further...

R2 is obstructed by F6 on a ground ball through the infield. R2 still rounds third and there is a banger at the plate and R2 is tagged before touching the plate by a hair.

The proper thing in this situation is for the PU not to make an out/safe call but to call time and announce on the obstruction the runner is safe. This is why it is very important for the BU's voice be loud enough on the obstruction that the PU knows whats going on and doesn't look bad. I'll bet there'd be a unhappy coach after this play who insists he is still out. So be prepared.

[BrianC14]

I read the OP that R2 was "obstructed" as he was leaving second base in a tag-up situation.

I won't read anything else into the statement as posted.

I'd have had two outs, even in FED rules.

BU shouldn't be calling obstruction on a play like that. (What was F6 supposed to be obstructing R2 from?)

Patten, did you get a chance to ask your BU about the call? (During the game or after...)?

[Mr Umpire]

I have a question. What age group is this and can they lead off?

If they can lead off, then I am guessing the Obstruction occurred several feet off the base. And, all of this depends on timing b/c if this occurred several feet off base and just before F7 catches the ball and how deep is F7 in the outfield as he catches the ball, then how can the out be allowed? Also, if F6 was right in front of R2 as R2 turns to go towards 3B, then his concentration will not be on the ball b/c he has to go around F6. And, if the catch occurs as R2 is having to go around F6, how can the out be allowed? R2 has no chance to recover and get back to 2B which would make him protected. Also, was it just R2 had to slightly change his base path around F6 or did he bump F6 and lose his balance some?

Now, if the Obstruction occurred and the runner went beyond F6 and didn't lose his balance due to any contact or stopped right where he was at, then the ball was caught. I would have no Obstruction. F6 did not prevent R2 from being able to return before the throw was made.

Again, I think more info is needed or this is a HTBT situation.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Mr Umpire

[PeteBooth]

I read the OP that R2 was "obstructed" as he was leaving second base in a tag-up situation.

I won't read anything else into the statement as posted.

I'd have had two outs, even in FED rules.

And you would be wrong in a FED game.

in FED the obtsructed runner gets a minimum of a one base award

In the play presented R2 gets a least 3rd base.

Pete Booth

[BrianC14]

What's he obstructing him from, Pete?

[PeteBooth]

What's he obstructing him from, Pete?

Brian the aforementioned point is moot in a FED game.

In FED once the umpire signals OBS, the obstructed runner gets a minimum of a one base award - PERIOD.

No such thing in FED as the phrase IF ANY - that's an OBR term.

better read up on FED rules if you are going to umpire a FED game

Pete Booth

[BrianC14]

Brian the aforementioned point is moot in a FED game.

In FED once the umpire signals OBS, the obstructed runner gets a minimum of a one base award - PERIOD.

No such thing in FED as the phrase IF ANY - that's an OBR term.

better read up on FED rules if you are going to umpire a FED game

Pete Booth

Okey dokey, whatever you say, Pete.

:WTF

[mstaylor]

I'm certainly not sure what the obstruction is but if obstruction is called then it has to be enforced in FED. This is at least one base.

Fed: Always a delayed dead ball, always at least one base.

NCAA: Always a delayed dead ball, award whatever fixes the obstruction.

OBR: Two types(A and

Type A: BR obstructed before first on an infield ball or a play being made on the runner when obstructed. Imediate dead ball,always at least one base past last legally touched base, more if needed.

Type B: Play not being made on the runner, delayed dead ball, award bases needed to fix the obstruction, includes not awarding anything.

I realize the term delayed dead ball isn't specifically mentioned in OBR but the term let play continue until no further actio is possible is the same thing.

[Mr Umpire]

Okey dokey, whatever you say, Pete.

I don't think Pete is saying to call Obstruction. I think Pete is saying, if the umpire calls Obstruction, then the runner gets 1 base in Fed rules.

[PeteBooth]

Okey dokey, whatever you say, Pete.

Brian the OP was not about JUDGEMENT meaning was it or was it not OBS.

The OP stated that OBS was called, so that's how I and most answered.

The point is:

In FED R1 gets second base on the OBS then we enforce the interference.

here is the latest FED interp on a similar play to that of the OP

SITUATION 15: With runners at first and second and one out, the batter hits a bounding ball to left field. The runner from second touches third and is obstructed advancing to home. The obstructed runner then interferes with the catcher attempting to make a play on the runner from first advancing to third base.

RULING: The penalties are enforced in the order in which the infractions occurred. The runner advancing from second is awarded home. Following the enforcement for the obstruction, the interference is penalized. The runner from first is declared out and the batter-runner is returned to the base he legally occupied at the time of the interference. Had the interference been malicious in nature, the obstructed runner would be declared out in addition to the out on the runner from first. (2-22-1, 2-21-1a, 3-3-1n Penalty, 8-4-2e, 8-4-2g)

As mentioned if you are going to umpire a game using FED rules then make certain you KNOW the different rulings.

Pete Booth

[MCLEOD36]

Warren.

On yours, the issue is obstruction to third ie he gets third, now if he prevented guy from scoring, then it is judgement. I would protect him to third, but have a hard time unless 2 outs and running on play to protect him at home on obstruction between 2nd and 3rd..

[MCLEOD36]

Pete.

I think the issue on obstruction was, timing. We all agree baserunner gets one base, but if runner is obstructed on a flyball from 2nd to 3rd before the tag and he had to go back on the tag up, that is a very hard call to make and give him third on the intial obstruction unless blatant. Now getting back to the base or running after the tag; he gets third.

[PeteBooth]

Pete.

I think the issue on obstruction was, timing. We all agree baserunner gets one base, but if runner is obstructed on a flyball from 2nd to 3rd before the tag and he had to go back on the tag up, that is a very hard call to make and give him third on the intial obstruction unless blatant.

MCLEOD

Here is what you are missing.

We are talking FED forget about OBR or NCAA

When a runner is obstructed whether Blatant or not, in a FED game he gets an ADVANCE base PERIOD.

So to use your scenrio

but if runner is obstructed on a flyball from 2nd to 3rd before the tag and he had to go back on the tag up, that is a very hard call to make and give him third

makes no difference in a FED game. R2 gets third base and it is NOT a very hard call to make because it is the RULE.

Pete Booth

[MCLEOD36]

Pete.

am not missing it, my point is I can see more coaches coming unglued in this situation when the guy is being obstructed that way. My guess is SS is watching the play and runner runs into him heading to third prior to a tag up, that is a harder situation to call then SS holding him up.

Obstruction is one base or two (umpires judgement) period; I was just trying to think of the situation there. In either case; be loud on either obstruction or interference calls, cause you know grief can be forthcoming...

[PeteBooth]

Pete.

am not missing it, my point is I can see more coaches coming unglued in this situation when the guy is being obstructed that way. My guess is SS is watching the play and runner runs into him heading to third prior to a tag up, that is a harder situation to call then SS holding him up.

There are 2 THINGS going on.

Number 1 - Was it OBS or NOT and that is judgement which is an altogether different subject matter.

Number 2 - Whether you agree or not OBS was called and then the obstructed runner interfered.

What's the RULING:

Once we get asked a question of what the ruling is then IMO, forget about the judgement part of whether you think OBS should have been called in the first place. The FACT is OBS was called followed by interference. Now what

In FED, as the FED interp indicated we enfoce the penalties IN ORDER of occurence.

IN FED the obstructed runner gets an advance base - PERIOD regardless if the runner was retreating back to the base to tag up or kept going forward. In FED it makes NO difference.

Now we deal with the interference.

In FED the only thing that TRUMPS the enforcement of the OBS is if R2 malicously contacted a fielder, then in FED MC supercedes the OBS.

The point I was making to both you and Brian is FORGET about whether or not you guys agree or not with the original ruling on OBS and answer the OP using the RULES for each code.

Also, as mentioned it is not a TOUGH SELL in a FED game once the runner is obstructed.

Pete Booth

[Bob Bainter]

Under OBR, I would allow the out to stand. R2 was obstructed leaving the base as the ball was hit. I will probably protect him to third. He still has an obligation to retouch on a caught fly ball. If R2 was obstructed going back into second as the throw was coming in to double him off, then I would protect him to second then award third. Type A obstruction. In the original sitch, the obstruction had no bearing on R2's return to second, hence letting the out stand.

In NCAA, I would tend to rule the same way for the same reasons without the immediate dead ball.

In FED, R2 is awarded third when the play is completed. Delayed dead ball.

Try following my reasoning on this, maybe right, maybe wrong, still sounds good. Obstruction called while R2 leaving second. During play R2 is attempting to retouch when he is doubled off. More likely there will be no further continuation of the play. "Time, obstruction right here, you (R2) third base." If he retouches second then third, all is well. If he goes straight to third without retouching second, he is not allowed to return to second, per the rules. Appeal upheld for not tagging up properly. If at the conclusion of the play he is standing on third without an attempt to retouch, I have "Time, obstruction right here, you (R2), stay at third." Since a base runner is not allowed to go back to a base after he has reached the next base when the ball is dead, I will allow an appeal for not tagging up properly. All in all, the runner still has base running requirements, ie tagging up properly. If the runner was not able to tag up properly due to the obstruction, blocking the base, I would deny the appeal.

Let me know what y'all think.

I would only disagree with you on the OBR side of things...

If I call obstruction when R2 is leaving second base...and then he goes back to second and I allow him to be out...you are opening an entire can of worms that you might not want to have happen.

If R2 is obstructed, he has been "confused, hindered, impeded, or obstructed (did I get those in the right order...lol)" How do we know what was going through his mind. Also, think about one of the three P's (Professionalism, Perception, and Poise)...Perception...you just called an obstruction and now that same runner is out? In OBR, I am definitely going to protect him back to second base so I don't take the "dirty" end of the stick...it's the smart decision...remember...playing rule book lawyer (and I'm certainly not saying you are personally, because I respect your thought process on this) can lead you to a very difficult situation. In my opinion, this would be the "correct" call

My two cents...which in this economy is all I have left...

Bob Bainter

[BT_Blue]

Gentlemen, Doesnt the runner still have responsibility to come back and tag 2nd? This runner was obstructed leaving second and never tagged up. So thusly this should be an appeal play that he never tagged up.

You call OBS. At the end of the play (in all codes) call time and enforce the OBS. Now the defense has the ability to say "wait, he never tagged up. We want to appeal this" you now call him out for failing to do his job as a runner in the first place.

Since the OBS in the OP did not prevent R2 from coming back and touching the bag then I believe we must allow the appeal and call R2 out for failing to tag up.