Check swing walk turns into K/ Runner "out" stealing?

[buckyswider]

Hi all, I think the answer to this is the point B1 is ruled "out", but I'm not sure...

3-2, 0 or 1 outs, R1.  R1 runs on the pitch.  B1 checks his swing, HP ump rules a ball.  F2 throws to 2nd anyway and the runner is tagged before touching second.  2B ump calls R1 "out".    F2 appeals to the 1B ump who rules it a swing.  

So what is the correct ruling on R1, who may or may not have slowed his pace upon seeing/hearing the pitch ruled ball 4??  

[Jimurray]

42 minutes ago, buckyswider said:

Hi all, I think the answer to this is the point B1 is ruled "out", but I'm not sure...

3-2, 0 or 1 outs, R1.  R1 runs on the pitch.  B1 checks his swing, HP ump rules a ball.  F2 throws to 2nd anyway and the runner is tagged before touching second.  2B ump calls R1 "out".    F2 appeals to the 1B ump who rules it a swing.  

So what is the correct ruling on R1, who may or may not have slowed his pace upon seeing/hearing the pitch ruled ball 4??  

From the rulebook 8.02(c) comment:

“Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire.”

U2 should not have called the runner out until the appeal was decided. Best to just say “stay there”

[Richvee]

44 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

From the rulebook 8.02(c) comment:

“Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire.”

U2 should not have called the runner out until the appeal was decided. Best to just say “stay there”

That's OBR. I believe FED wants us to change it under the advice of umpires changing a call can "make it right" if the original call caused runners to stop, slow down, etc. 

[Senor Azul]

Mr. buckyswider, you will get a more definitive and focused answer when you also provide the rule set used in the situation you describe. As it turns out, Mr. Jimurray is correct for both NCAA and OBR (this exact play is in all the manuals) and Mr. Richvee is correct for FED--

 

2018 NFHS Case Book Play 10.2.3 Situation H:  R1 with a count of 3-2 on B2, the batter takes what appears to be a half swing. The plate umpire calls ball four and R1, upon hearing ball four, then trots to second base. The catcher throws the ball to F4 who tags R1 before he reaches base. The catcher asks the plate umpire to check with the base umpire to see if B2 did, in fact, attempt to hit the pitch. The base umpire indicates that the batter did swing at the ball. RULING:  The plate umpire will declare the batter out and return R1 to first base. The UIC can rectify any situation in which an umpire’s decision that was reversed has placed a base runner in jeopardy.

 

 

[buckyswider]

Thanks guys!  Wasn't a particular call that made me think of it, so I was curious what it was in the different codes anyway.  And yeah, now that you guys mention the 8.02(c) comment it rings a bell. I'm U(retired), so I don't read the rule book(s) religiously like I used to so my memory is failing.      And I think this is the first time where I can say I like a FED rule better than OBR!!  

While it wasn't a "call", there was just a situation in an MLB game that made me curious, but I fabricated my play above as a "what if".  In this scenario there was only a slight check swing, the U2 gave a half-hearted "safe" call then indicated that the batter had walked.  

 

Thanks again! 

[Kevin_K]

I get the NCAA and OBR interpretations, but I don't know if this play meets the same circumstances as the FED case play.

The OP had R1 running on the pitch while the case play indicates R1 was trotting. If R1 does not slow in his attempt to steal does this case apply?

The next case play reads:

10.2.3 SITUATION I:

With a count of three balls and two strikes on B1 and no runners on base, the pitch is made and the batter takes what appears to be a half swing. The plate umpire calls ball four as the ball gets away from F2. B1 trots to first base and F2 throws the ball to F3, who tags B1 prior to his reaching the base. F2 asks the plate umpire to check with the base umpire to see if it was a strike. The base umpire indicates that B1 did swing at the ball.

RULING: If, in the judgment of the umpire-in-chief, B1 would have reached first base before the throw if it had not been called ball four, the plate umpire can award B1 first base. The umpire-in-chief can rectify any situation in which an umpire’s decision has placed a batter-runner in jeopardy. Advances and outs made by runners following a reversed call stand, if the call that was changed clearly did not place them in jeopardy. (emphasis mine)

Be ready for a sh*thouse if you return R1 after he has been banged out at 2B. DHC may very well lose his mind after his team makes a play and loses an out because of what may be an arcane nuance to the rules 

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

Advances and outs made by runners following a reversed call stand, if the call that was changed clearly did not place them in jeopardy. (emphasis mine)

 

That's an important point we left out of our answers. In the OP, with R1 stealing, he would have had to have slowed down knowing ball four was called. If the whole play continued at full speed, the out could very well stand. (umpire judgement. The word Clearly , in the case play emphasizing, IMO, benefit of the doubt favors the runners)