Dropped third strike

[Guest Kevin]

I had this situation in a 12U girls tournament game. Bases loaded 1 out. Catcher drops third strike. Batter takes off for first. ALL other runners never leave their base UNTIL the catcher throws to first. Once the ball left her hand all runners safely advanced 1 base, girl from third scoring. Now, I know the batter is out regardless as first was occupied with less than 2 outs, however the catcher put the ball into play. My understanding this is a live ball and runners advance at their own risk. Umpire sent all runners back and stated it was a dead ball when she left the batters box and also warned me as the coach that it was “deceiving the defense” and I would be ejected if it happened again. 

Now, there’s no deception involved I teach my girls to run on strike 3 regardless if it’s caught or not just to get in the habit of running to first if it were dropped. I also teach my catchers if there’s a runner on third to hold the ball on dropped third strike. From the rule books I have read I’ve seen no where stated this is an illegal play. I’ve also not found any rule on deceiving the defense. 

[scrounge]

On 6/23/2018 at 8:53 PM, beerguy55 said:

Case in point - even Little League only has a Baseball division - whereas they have Softball-Girls and Softball-Boys divisions.   No Baseball-Girls.

So, if you can point out any all girls baseball league or tournament...or even an all girls high school baseball team...I'd be much obliged to learn about it.  

Even a cursory google search turns up numerous women's baseball tournaments. There's even a women's baseball world cup.

[Richvee]

On 06/22/2018 at 1:24 PM, beerguy55 said:

Teaching players is iterative, adaptive, progressive and evolutionary.   You don't always have a club team you've had for three years and are training over the winter.  Sometimes you have a community team that was thrown together by random name draw for the local league, and you've had exactly two practices before the "get to know you" tournament, and five of your players have never played organized baseball before.

At the younger levels, I teach my players to run on every strike three.   As they get older, (or show some degree of savvy) I explain/teach the rule, and the exceptions.   At the earlier levels, if the catcher has dropped the ball, R1 is almost certainly going ANYWAY, regardless of the count, and in most cases, F2 isn't making the play.   If I have a less experienced player, even at older levels, run on every strike three.

I personally saw this backfire on two teams this weekend. R1, R2, 1out D3K, Batter takes off, PU reiterates "batter is out!!". R1 takes off, R2 doesn't. Throw to 1B nails a confused R1 trying to get back to 1B.  Inning over.

You said it yourself. Sometimes you have a random draw of kids from the local league. Teaching the batter to run every time at this level will confuse the inexperienced runners into more outs more often than they  advance bases by poor throws. 

 

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, Richvee said:

I personally saw this backfire on two teams this weekend. R1, R2, 1out D3K, Batter takes off, PU reiterates "batter is out!!". R1 takes off, R2 doesn't. Throw to 1B nails a confused R1 trying to get back to 1B.  Inning over.

You said it yourself. Sometimes you have a random draw of kids from the local league. Teaching the batter to run every time at this level will confuse the inexperienced runners into more outs more often than they  advance bases by poor throws. 

 

Nope - only the times first base is occupied with less than two out....and even then, typically, at the lower levels, only if second base is occupied as well.  Yeah, it backfires once in a while.  The exception proves the rule.

Your scenario is more a lesson in base running - namely, make sure the person in front of you is going before you go...that could have easily happened - and does a lot - on a dropped ball two as well.

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, Ump29 said:

So yes female involvement in baseball is alive and well.

And once again, I never claimed otherwise.

I simply illustrated the basic math - if someone says "12U girls", whether it's team or tournament, if you conclude it's softball you are going to be right far more often than you'll be wrong....quite possibly at a rate of 50 or even 100 to 1.   To take exception to that is silly.

[Richvee]

6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Nope - only the times first base is occupied with less than two out....and even then, typically, at the lower levels, only if second base is occupied as well.  Yeah, it backfires once in a while.  The exception proves the rule.

Your scenario is more a lesson in base running - namely, make sure the person in front of you is going before you go...that could have easily happened - and does a lot - on a dropped ball two as well.

I've seen plenty R1 only get caught in  no man's land confused beyond help while the umpire's saying "batter is Out", coaches are yelling "RUN", and parents/fans are just yelling everything from stop, run, get back, and poor kid stands there and before he knows it, F3 is standing there with the ball applying a tag.

I'm not talking about passed balls passed F2 where runners would be advancing on any count. I'm talking about bounced K3's in the dirt in front of the catcher,  ball pops out of glove, etc. These are the D3K's that result in double plays because R1 isn't  sure what to do with BR running at him/her. And if you're going to say "Well, have the BR run only on a passed ball D3K, now you're  making up exceptions to the incorrect  "always run rule"  instead on teaching the exception to the correct rule of when to run.

We'll just have to disagree on this one.. I say play the game right.  And that starts by teaching them the correct rules. 

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

We'll just have to disagree on this one.. I say play the game right.  And that starts by teaching them the correct rules. 

I don't disagree.  I'm simply saying it's progressive.  They're not going to get it day one.  And every player is going to figure it out at their own pace.    Start with the easy directive, and build on it.  If it's the choice between a batter who's still standing in the batter's box (or walking to the bench) by the time the catcher has gone and picked up their ball or the occasional R1 running into an out, I'll take the latter, which happens far less frequently.

You yourself illustrate all the other factors at play here - the coaches are yelling "run" (I actually don't do that - I expect the batter to run on their own...whether they're told to always do it...or have got to the point they know when they need to)...so when I'm yelling "run" or "go" it's a directive for the runners already on base.   In your scenario, nobody knows who the coach is talking to...including the confused runners.  The fact that the coach is screaming "run" when the batter's out isn't helping.  The first base coach has as simple job, and that's to direct R1...if he's yelling "run" to ANYBODY in that scenario, he's not doing his job.  And, the parents screaming everything under the sun is the other factor that has nothing to do with what the player has been taught.

Everything you describe is going to cause confusion for R1, R2 and the batter, whether the coach has told the batter to always run or not.   Even if the batter doesn't run (at first)...the coaches yelling "run" and the parents screaming everything from "run" to "go back" to "how can you call that a strike Blue?" is going to cause confusion.

Which gets to another early rule I teach the players "Only listen to your coaches".

 

[beerguy55]

13 hours ago, Ump29 said:

@beerguy55

So, if you can point out any all girls baseball league or tournament...or even an all girls high school baseball team...I'd be much obliged to learn about it. 

In my neck of the woods this is quite true. Females are involved in almost all levels of youth baseball both in co ed teams and all female teams. These all female teams play in the same leagues as the boys. Our umpire association also has about 8 percent female membership who can work games which are all male , mixed or all female. There has been a National Championship played in our area for several years which consists of all female teams. There is also talk of starting all female leagues this summer. Baseball Canada holds several all female National Championships every year. So yes female involvement in baseball is alive and well.

By the way I am male and have been umpiring for almost 30 years.

I will, also, give credit where credit is due - in Canada anyway Nova Scotia appears to be the leader in this area of development and I would like to see that continue.  As an example...Nova Scotia is sending two girls teams to the U16 girls baseball Nationals...Whereas provinces like Ontario, Alberta and BC are only sending one each....(and I'm assuming there is only one to send)...whereas those three provinces are typically sending 3-6 teams each to the softball nationals...and another 15-20 softball teams in those provinces tried and didn't qualify.