FPSR video

[Richvee]

There's a thread on the collegiate board with a video that has been determined that college wants this called force play slide INT.

I thought it was an interesting play, reminding us FPSR can occur at 3B or home, and we could still have a violation if the defense is attempting to tag the forced runner.

Would FED agree with this collegiate interp?

[blue23ll]

I believe FED would want this called interference. IF you slide, it must be a legal slide. If you don't slide you have to still avoid contact. Going in standing up doesn't relieve the runner of the responsibility to avoid contact. 

[grayhawk]

I believe FED would want this called interference. IF you slide, it must be a legal slide. If you don't slide you have to still avoid contact. Going in standing up doesn't relieve the runner of the responsibility to avoid contact. 

I agree on a force play. If not a force, I have nothing.

[Richvee]

6 hours ago, grayhawk said:

If not a force, I have nothing

I agree....But that's a pretty odd concept. One almost zero high school players would know. 

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, Richvee said:

Would FED agree with this collegiate interp?

I posted this on the Collegiaet board (having read that first):

 

Yes.

 

I've had (too) many discussions over the years on this play (well, usually about the similar play happening at second) with other umpires who put way too much stock in the phrase "a runner is never required to slide" from the rule (or maybe case) book.  It's kind of like the "a pitcher can't throw to an unoccupied base" phrase -- not enough read the rest of the rule to which that applies.

[Majordave]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

I agree....But that's a pretty odd concept. One almost zero high school players would know. 

How many players or even coaches do you know that have EVER read a rule book?  I used to try and teach rules to my players when I coached. From the actual rulebooks no less.  Tough duty for sure. 

Parents?  Never gonna happen.  I am an advocate of a simple 25-50 most commonly encountered rules test (similar to the 50 rules myths handout many of us have seen over the years) being administered to players, coaches and most of all parents.  Fail the test and you go back to the parking lot to study before you are allowed entry to the ballpark to play or coach or watch little junior play baseball.  That just might help increase the baseball rules IQ of any organization that enforced that requirement.  I would administer it EVERY game.  Build some empirical knowledge.  Maybe. 

A guy (umpire) can dream can't he?

My .02............

[maven]

We should call R3 out for violating (FED) 8-4-2f.

Any runner is out when... "as a runner or retired runner, fails to execute a legal slide, or does not attempt to avoid the fielder or the play on a force play at any base."

The provision about runners never having to slide is part of 8-4-2b and not salient to, nor does it overrule, this provision.

[grayhawk]

~

I understand what you’re saying, but imagine this play happening not at the plate, or a bag, but rather between bases. The runner did nothing to interfere. All he did was run normally and the fielder wasn’t able to maintain possession through the continuing action of the tag.

NCAA has a clause that on plays at the plate, the runner must make an obvious attempt to avoid contact with the catcher. Perhaps that’s why they said this was illegal contact.

[maven]

32 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I understand what you’re saying, but imagine this play happening not at the plate, or a bag, but rather between bases. The runner did nothing to interfere. All he did was run normally and the fielder wasn’t able to maintain possession through the continuing action of the tag.

If we're talking about 8-4-2f, the requirement to attempt to avoid is restricted to fielder making a play "at a base."

[grayhawk]

43 minutes ago, maven said:

If we're talking about 8-4-2f, the requirement to attempt to avoid is restricted to fielder making a play "at a base."

Which takes us back to calling this interference only on a force play at a base (or plate).

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

 

I understand what you’re saying, but imagine this play happening not at the plate, or a bag, but rather between bases. The runner did nothing to interfere. All he did was run normally and the fielder wasn’t able to maintain possession through the continuing action of the tag.

NCAA has a clause that on plays at the plate, the runner must make an obvious attempt to avoid contact with the catcher. Perhaps that’s why they said this was illegal contact.

 

The clarification I got specified 8-4, not 8-7.

[grayhawk]

9 minutes ago, Matt said:

The clarification I got specified 8-4, not 8-7.

8-4c(5) is probably the specific rule.  I didn't have access earlier when I posted.

[maven]

55 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Which takes us back to calling this interference only on a force play at a base (or plate).

Yes, I was agreeing with you and offering the basis in the rules for your proposed distinction.

[grayhawk]

1 minute ago, maven said:

Yes, I was agreeing with you and offering the basis in the rules for your proposed distinction.

I see now - did you edit your original response to my post?

[maven]

2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

I see now - did you edit your original response to my post?

No. I changed it while you were typing. The original was posted for less than 1 minute.

[grayhawk]

No. I changed it while you were typing. The original was posted for less than 1 minute.

It was weird because when I responded, you post didn’t quote. Makes sense now.

[JSam21]

On 3/12/2018 at 12:38 AM, grayhawk said:

 

I agree on a force play. If not a force, I have nothing.

 

Isn’t a tag play on a forced runner... still a force out?

[Richvee]

31 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Isn’t a tag play on a forced runner... still a force out?

Exactly. That's why on a force play, even if the fielder is attempting a tag, the runner needs to slide legally, OR avoid contact. If he does neither, and it alters the play,we have a FPSR violation. (even though the out attempt was a tag)

[Cav]

Yep.