Bullpen interferes

[White47]

This happen a couple of weeks ago, I called my college assigner, my HS assigner, an SEC umpire, an ACC umpire and my MiLB contact, and got a consensus from them, (if you can't tell, I didn't think they where right so I kept calling others people),but though I'd pose it on here.

No one on and the outs are irrelevant. Ball hit down LF line fair, and kid in DT bullpen picks up live ball, then immediately drops it again. At the time the ball was picked up BR was in between 1st and 2nd.

 

All of them said that this technical fall under spectator interference, and that ball is immediately dead and runners are place at umpires judgment.

 

We placed him and second. I feel like we got it right, but for the wrong reasons, we were thinking of it more like GRD.

 

What do y'all think?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[noumpere]

It's neither spectator INT or a GRD -- it's "interference by a person authorized to be on the field" -- the general placement is the same as for spectator int.

[MidAmUmp]

Actually it is under spectator interference in the NCAA rule book. It says  

"When a spectator or any other individual interferes intentionally with any thrown or batted ball, the ball is dead at the moment of interference and the umpire shall impose such penalties as will nullify the act of interference "

[Jimurray]

Good result, using the wrong rule. At least better than the last time I saw it in MLB where IMHU, there was INT by bullpen personal.

[VolUmp]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Good result, using the wrong rule. At least better than the last time I saw it in MLB where IMHU, there was INT by bullpen personal.

Brings back memories of so many HOOTERS girls who have run out and picked up a fair ball ... "Honey ... ya had ONE job ... "

"Ummmmm ... like ... ummm what's a fair ball????"

[Senor Azul]

I think the NCAA rule cited earlier is rule 6-4a and I do not think it is the applicable rule to the OP. Let’s try NCAA rule 4-8 instead:

Nongame Personnel Interference

SECTION 8. If there is interference with a live batted or thrown ball by anyone other than players, coaches or umpires, the umpire shall rule as to its being intentional or unintentional.

a. If it is intentional, the ball shall be declared dead at the moment of the interference, and the umpire shall award the offended team appropriate compensation that, in his opinion, would have resulted had interference not taken place.

1) It is intentional interference if a coach, bat person, photographer or home field attendant fields, kicks or pushes a ball, regardless of possible motives.

2) The umpire shall declare intentional interference and award just compensation, be it an out, extra bases, etc., if a spectator intentionally reaches out of the stands or goes out onto the playing field. The ball is dead immediately.

b. If it is unintentional interference, the ball is live and in play. It is unintentional interference if a base coach, bat person, photographer, etc., tries to evade the ball and it touches the individual or if it touches such person without the person being aware the ball was coming.

c. It is not interference if, as the player is going outside the playing field during a play, a spectator i

[VolUmp]

2 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

It is unintentional interference if a base coach, bat person, photographer, etc., tries to evade the ball and it touches the individual or if it touches such person without the person being aware the ball was coming.

Senor Azul, I only have one question ... highlighted above.

If a base coach tries to avoid a batted ball, I was always under the impression that he must successfully avoid, or the ball is dead and there is an out if the player nearest him had a legit play on the ball.  Does that only apply to a fly ball?  We always remind base coached that on batted balls, the box is not their safe have or sanctuary.

Thrown balls do not apply.  If a batter hits a screamer down the 3rd base line 3 feet foul and the F5 (playing deep) dives for it but the ball first hits the 3rd base coach who was ducking and trying to avoid it, I'm calling time, killing the play, explaining intent doesn't enter into the rule, and calling the batter out.

[Replacematt]

11 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Senor Azul, I only have one question ... highlighted above.

If a base coach tries to avoid a batted ball, I was always under the impression that he must successfully avoid, or the ball is dead and there is an out if the player nearest him had a legit play on the ball.  Does that only apply to a fly ball?  We always remind base coached that on batted balls, the box is not their safe have or sanctuary.

Thrown balls do not apply.  If a batter hits a screamer down the 3rd base line 3 feet foul and the F5 (playing deep) dives for it but the ball first hits the 3rd base coach who was ducking and trying to avoid it, I'm calling time, killing the play, explaining intent doesn't enter into the rule, and calling the batter out.

Interference by a base coach (assuming he is in the box) with a thrown or batted ball has to be intentional. Interference with a fielder does not have to be.

[VolUmp]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

Interference by a base coach (assuming he is in the box) with a thrown or batted ball has to be intentional. Interference with a fielder does not have to be.

There is no such thing as interference with a fielder.  OBS maybe?  I don't believe your assertion that as long as coach is in the box he's in a safe haven.  Too many examples of this have been shown as bona fide INT calls where the base coach must give ground — even leaving box if necessary — to avoid the ball.  Similar to a batter who must run 8 feet out of the baseline to avoid a F1 and F3 going for a pop up he just hit.  I know it's not crystal clear in the OBR book, but I believe it's been taken care of in the interp manuals.

[Replacematt]

Just now, VolUmp said:

There is no such thing as interference with a fielder.  OBS maybe?  I don't believe your assertion that as long as coach is in the box he's in a safe haven.  Too many examples of this have been shown as bona fide INT calls where the base coach must give ground — even leaving box if necessary — to avoid the ball.  Similar to a batter who must run 8 feet out of the baseline to avoid a F1 and F3 going for a pop up he just hit.  I know it's not crystal clear in the OBR book, but I believe it's been taken care of in the interp manuals.

I'm referring to a base coach interfering with a fielder.

And yes, the box is a safe haven on batted and thrown balls, absent intent.

[VolUmp]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

I'm referring to a base coach interfering with a fielder.

And yes, the box is a safe haven on batted and thrown balls, absent intent.

All wrong in every code.  Guaranteed. 

It's one of the 40 myths of baseball. 

Really, really, disappointing that you're bragging on your recent assignments and falling victim to a common myth.

(Are the hands part of the bat too Matt???)

[Replacematt]

2 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

All wrong in every code.  Guaranteed. 

It's one of the 40 myths of baseball. 

Really, really, disappointing that you're bragging on your recent assignments and falling victim to a common myth.

(Are the hands part of the bat too Matt???)

Why don't you look at 6.01(d) and (f)?

[MidAmUmp]

50 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

I think the NCAA rule cited earlier is rule 6-4a and I do not think it is the applicable rule to the OP. Let’s try NCAA rule 4-8 instead:

Nongame Personnel Interference

SECTION 8. If there is interference with a live batted or thrown ball by anyone other than players, coaches or umpires, the umpire shall rule as to its being intentional or unintentional.

a. If it is intentional, the ball shall be declared dead at the moment of the interference, and the umpire shall award the offended team appropriate compensation that, in his opinion, would have resulted had interference not taken place.

1) It is intentional interference if a coach, bat person, photographer or home field attendant fields, kicks or pushes a ball, regardless of possible motives.

2) The umpire shall declare intentional interference and award just compensation, be it an out, extra bases, etc., if a spectator intentionally reaches out of the stands or goes out onto the playing field. The ball is dead immediately.

b. If it is unintentional interference, the ball is live and in play. It is unintentional interference if a base coach, bat person, photographer, etc., tries to evade the ball and it touches the individual or if it touches such person without the person being aware the ball was coming.

c. It is not interference if, as the player is going outside the playing field during a play, a spectator i

Try again...

The rule you've quoted deals with bat boys/girls, security, etc. The first sentence should have given that away when it says anyone OTHER THAN players, coaches or umpires...

The last time I checked a rostered player in the bullpen was a player. 

And the rule I quoted was actually 8-3-n. (Page 76 to be exact.)

The penalty is the same, regardless, but the verbiage makes a difference.

[White47]

4 hours ago, VolUmp said:

If a batter hits a screamer down the 3rd base line 3 feet foul and the F5 (playing deep) dives for it but the ball first hits the 3rd base coach who was ducking and trying to avoid it, I'm calling time, killing the play, explaining intent doesn't enter into the rule, and calling the batter out.

I agree with you that it is not a safe haven, But I'm probably not calling this INT on the play you said unless the box is super close to fair ground, the third baseman is playing in foul territory (which he can't do), really hugging the line, Or chipper Jones or A Rod are playing third.

however, take a bloop or a popfly, The base coach must move as to not hinder the fielder. If he hinders in anyway there need not be contact with ball or player to call INT. 

[White47]

9 hours ago, MidAmUmp said:

Actually it is under spectator interference in the NCAA rule book. It says  

"When a spectator or any other individual interferes intentionally with any thrown or batted ball, the ball is dead at the moment of interference and the umpire shall impose such penalties as will nullify the act of interference "

This is the answer I got from everyone I talked to. I was really surprised when I started digging into it how little direction the rules actual give to situation like this. It's mostly interps. Thanks.

[White47]

7 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Good result, using the wrong rule. At least better than the last time I saw it in MLB where IMHU, there was INT by bullpen personal.

Last time I saw this was a Cubs game a few years ago. Fielder slide and ran into Bullpen Personal. No out was given. Umpire's reasoning was that it wasn't intent. Not sure I agree with there call, But they are there for a reason. 

[Mr Ump]

We had this today in the Illinois HS State Tournament semis...the 'protector' in the bullpen fielded a two hopper... then dropped when he realized what he had done...batted ball would of been a true triple....the runners were scored and the B-R was awarded 3rd....