Summer tourny with DH and EH (NFHS rules) - terminating DH question

[Guest Bob]

Tournament rules state the following:

"All rules will correspond with the National Federation of High Schools (NFHS) rules, with the
following exceptions:
EXTRA HITTER RULE and ROSTER BATTING. Teams may elect to Roster Bat or you may also choose to bat 1 extra hitter (10) as an EH and that player can go into the game defensively without penalty, and you may also use a DH. Free substitutions when teams elects to Roster Bat. You also have the option to bat nine (9) inaccordance with major league rules and may have a DH for any player in the field. Starters can re-enter, subs cannot."

 

We were playing with a DH for our pitcher and an EH.  We took out our starting pitcher.  Our left fielder came in to pitch.  Our extra hitter went to left field.  It was my understanding that we could then terminate the DH at that point...effectively going from 10 batters to 9 batters.  Could we have kept the DH in, and if so, for whom would he be DH'ing.

[Rich Ives]

11 minutes ago, Guest Bob said:

Tournament rules state the following:

"All rules will correspond with the National Federation of High Schools (NFHS) rules, with the
following exceptions:
EXTRA HITTER RULE and ROSTER BATTING. Teams may elect to Roster Bat or you may also choose to bat 1 extra hitter (10) as an EH and that player can go into the game defensively without penalty, and you may also use a DH. Free substitutions when teams elects to Roster Bat. You also have the option to bat nine (9) inaccordance with major league rules and may have a DH for any player in the field. Starters can re-enter, subs cannot."

 

We were playing with a DH for our pitcher and an EH.  We took out our starting pitcher.  Our left fielder came in to pitch.  Our extra hitter went to left field.  It was my understanding that we could then terminate the DH at that point...effectively going from 10 batters to 9 batters.  Could we have kept the DH in, and if so, for whom would he be DH'ing.

Ask the TD.

IMHO once you decide to bat 10 you keep batting 10.

[HokieUmp]

Rich might be right, but I'm going to disagree.  I believe in this case it's not "we could terminate" the DH, but you have to terminate the DH.

Yes, there's not to be a penalty for EH manipulation, so let's ignore that.  Remember, the DH under NHFS rules, isn't position based, it's player based.  So the DH is batting for Smith (we'll call him), and Jones (for another original name) is F7.  You can move Smith all over the field, and Doe (the hat-trick for names!) would still bat for him.  But now that Smith isn't playing a defensive spot, there's no one for the DH to bat for.  So the DH is terminated, and you HAVE lost a spot.

(Alternate theory I just thought of, but don't think you can do:  could one then argue that the starting F1 is the "free player?"  I mean, if you can swap the EH in defensively, that makes guy he replaces the "extra" hitter during that time.  But - to counter my own counter - since the starting F1 is the DH'd guy, he's not "supposed" to bat, so he can't really serve as that extra hitter - he violates the "hitter" part.  So I think I just shot down my own alternate theory, and you have no choice but to lose a batter, because of the player for whom you substituted.)

[FleasOf1000Camels]

It's my guess that whoever wrote those exceptions to NFHS rules has never officiated a game. 

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Very similar to situation we had a couple weeks ago.  Team had 11 players, batting 10 (9 plus an EH) with one of those spots being occupied by SMITH (pitcher) and (Doe) DH. Smith only pitched for a couple innings, then moved to another defensive position, but Doe (who never played in the field) continued to bat for Smith.

Late in the game they wanted to bring Doe (the DH) in to pitch.  I told them that would eliminate the DH, and leave Doe alone in that spot in the batting order, and that Smith could no longer play in the field.

[Kevin_K]

10 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Late in the game they wanted to bring Doe (the DH) in to pitch.  I told them that would eliminate the DH, and leave Doe alone in that spot in the batting order, and that Smith could no longer play in the field.

Depending on the rule set, doesn't Smith retain re-entry rights since he was a starter? If so, Smith could play on defense if Doe is removed. Similarly, Doe also has re-entry rights as a starter, no?

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

Depending on the rule set, doesn't Smith retain re-entry rights since he was a starter? If so, Smith could play on defense if Doe is removed. Similarly, Doe also has re-entry rights as a starter, no?

Correct for FED.

[Rich Ives]

19 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

Rich might be right, but I'm going to disagree.  I believe in this case it's not "we could terminate" the DH, but you have to terminate the DH.

Yes, there's not to be a penalty for EH manipulation, so let's ignore that.  Remember, the DH under NHFS rules, isn't position based, it's player based.  So the DH is batting for Smith (we'll call him), and Jones (for another original name) is F7.  You can move Smith all over the field, and Doe (the hat-trick for names!) would still bat for him.  But now that Smith isn't playing a defensive spot, there's no one for the DH to bat for.  So the DH is terminated, and you HAVE lost a spot.

(Alternate theory I just thought of, but don't think you can do:  could one then argue that the starting F1 is the "free player?"  I mean, if you can swap the EH in defensively, that makes guy he replaces the "extra" hitter during that time.  But - to counter my own counter - since the starting F1 is the DH'd guy, he's not "supposed" to bat, so he can't really serve as that extra hitter - he violates the "hitter" part.  So I think I just shot down my own alternate theory, and you have no choice but to lose a batter, because of the player for whom you substituted.)

Terminating a DH doesn't mean the lineup slot is now empty - is just means the defensive player must now bat. Those 9 plus the EH is 10.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

4 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

Depending on the rule set, doesn't Smith retain re-entry rights since he was a starter? If so, Smith could play on defense if Doe is removed. Similarly, Doe also has re-entry rights as a starter, no?

Sure, both are starters and have re-entry rights...but once the DH position is eliminated they could not BOTH be in the game at the same time.