Balk award

[Tksjewelry]

I think I screwed up am award tonight. OBR, R1 and R3, outs don't matter. F1 comes set, R1 steals second, Aquires the base then F1 decides to fake to third. I send R3 home and R1 to third. I'm almost positive, after the fact, that I should have left R1 at second. Which award would have been the correct one?

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[Richvee]

F1 still in the set position when R1 acquired 2nd? I believe home and 3rd are the correct awards.

[Tksjewelry]

Here an question from the same game. I've seen this set up a few times this year and it's got me perplexed. F4 sets up on the 1st base side of the bag. One foot along the bag, one foot behind it so the runner has to slide between F4s legs. Twice I've seen F4 loose the ball making the tag and fall on the runner. Obstruction?

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[noumpere]

I'm a little confused on the positioning of F4, but if he falls on the runner he's certainly liable to be called for OBS.  That said, the runner must be attempting to advance after the ball gets away, and F4 must continue to obstruct (assuming the fall was part of the act of trying to field a throw, falling on the runner is not immediately OBS and F4 doesn't need to "disappear.")

[maven]

7 hours ago, Tksjewelry said:

Here an question from the same game. I've seen this set up a few times this year and it's got me perplexed. F4 sets up on the 1st base side of the bag. One foot along the bag, one foot behind it so the runner has to slide between F4s legs. Twice I've seen F4 loose the ball making the tag and fall on the runner. Obstruction?

Agree with noumpere, but I'll say a bit more.

The key concept with OBS is hindrance. To have hindrance, the runner must actually be making a legitimate attempt to advance, such that the contact with the fielder hinders that advance.

If the ball is at F4's feet, that runner's going nowhere, so he can't be hindered by having a fielder on top of him. I'd guess that's what you had.

OTOH, if the ball skips into RF and the runner has a chance to advance, we have to look at what F4 does next.

If he fell as part of the action of the tag and rolls off immediately, I've got nothing. He has a right to be there, including on top of the runner, briefly, as part of fielding the throw. Just being briefly tangled with a runner as the result of doing his job is nothing, no matter what "rights" the OC claims for his runner.

But if he delays at all — intentionally or otherwise — then we'd want to get OBS. With the ball rolling in the outfield, this would be Type 2, call it and leave it live.

[noumpere]

When training, I usually phrase it as: "Since the fielder has an absolute right when fielding a batted ball, he has an absolute obligation to not hinder once he misplays the ball -- he must "disappear."  And, since the fielder has no absolute right to field a thrown ball, he has a lesser obligation to disappear once he misplays the ball."

[maven]

I do the same. It's not popular, however, as newer umpires want everything to be black and white, and we keep insisting on shades of gray....

[Tksjewelry]

Thanks all. I had it right then. I was just having an off night and not feeling the calls or explanations to coaches were done well so I was doubting the calls.

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[coachump4]

Was this a regional game you was doing?

[Tksjewelry]

Was this a regional game you was doing?

Just a local regular season 12u game. Reg season games are only practice for tournaments and they mean nothing to standings.

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[FleasOf1000Camels]

I had a similar one last weekend that caught me off guard.  R1 and R3, I was in B.

RH F1 stretched and held the set for an extra long time.  My attention was focused on pitcher, and I never noticed R1 simply walk over to 2nd.  Nobody on the defense said or did anything. 

Finally, here comes the pitch.  Fouled straight back out of play.  I looked at 3rd, R3 is headed back.  I looked over at 1st...there's nobody there.  Looked at 2nd, and there's the guy who I thought was on 1st.  This was game 4 for me on the day, and I'll be first to admit I wasn't as sharp as I ought to have been...I'm thinking where'd he come from?  How'd he get there without me seeing or hearing anything?  Did I miss an entire pitch somewhere? Holy crap, get your head back in the game.

Huddled with partner, and quickly decided to send him back to 1st.  OC was not pleased.

OC: He was standing on 2nd before the pitch.

Me: You mean he was all the way to the base before the ball left the pitcher's hand?  (BAIT)

OC: Yeah, the pitcher was still in his motion when he got there.  (BAIT TAKEN)

Me: Time of pitch is when pitcher commits to pitch, not when ball leaves his hand. (HOOK SWALLOWED)

 

[TheRockawayKid]

On 5/25/2016 at 1:26 AM, Tksjewelry said:

Here an question from the same game. I've seen this set up a few times this year and it's got me perplexed. F4 sets up on the 1st base side of the bag. One foot along the bag, one foot behind it so the runner has to slide between F4s legs. Twice I've seen F4 loose the ball making the tag and fall on the runner. Obstruction?

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Is this a slide from advancing R1 or retreating R2? If it's R1, I have obstruction and leave him at second. R2, I'd say no. 

[TheRockawayKid]

On 5/25/2016 at 9:25 AM, maven said:

Agree with noumpere, but I'll say a bit more.

The key concept with OBS is hindrance. To have hindrance, the runner must actually be making a legitimate attempt to advance, such that the contact with the fielder hinders that advance.

If the ball is at F4's feet, that runner's going nowhere, so he can't be hindered by having a fielder on top of him. I'd guess that's what you had.

OTOH, if the ball skips into RF and the runner has a chance to advance, we have to look at what F4 does next.

If he fell as part of the action of the tag and rolls off immediately, I've got nothing. He has a right to be there, including on top of the runner, briefly, as part of fielding the throw. Just being briefly tangled with a runner as the result of doing his job is nothing, no matter what "rights" the OC claims for his runner.

But if he delays at all — intentionally or otherwise — then we'd want to get OBS. With the ball rolling in the outfield, this would be Type 2, call it and leave it live.

Here's an interesting one someone told me about. FED rules.

R2. Pitcher throws pickoff to second base. F6, about four feet from the base, jumps to reach the ball and knocks over R2, who falls. There's now a runner who's on the ground, not touching second base, and a shortstop who's on top of him. 

What do you have and where do you put the runners? 

[maven]

14 minutes ago, TheRockawayKid said:

Here's an interesting one someone told me about. FED rules.

R2. Pitcher throws pickoff to second base. F6, about four feet from the base, jumps to reach the ball and knocks over R2, who falls. There's now a runner who's on the ground, not touching second base, and a shortstop who's on top of him. 

What do you have and where do you put the runners? 

Assuming R2 is tagged before returning to 2B, that's a pretty obvious case of OBS in FED. Enforce the minimum 1-base award from the last base legally touched: R2 goes to 3B, other runners advance only if forced by this award (R1, if any, was not obstructed, so he gets no award). The case is similar to 8.3.2K.

OTOH, if the ball rolls out into CF, F6 hops right off R2, and R2 returns safely to 2B, I've got nothing.

In OBR I've got nothing.

This discussion probably doesn't belong in a thread entitled "Balk Award."