2 Trips Same Batter

[zoops]

I almost had a situation where a coach pulled a "Mattingly" and did a mound visit, started to walk away, and then turned back to talk a couple more seconds.  However, he never left the dirt circle so I think he was okay.  No one in the game said anything but a fan actually yelled "that's two trips!" but didn't do anything more.  Got me looking in the rule book for what would be the correct ruling if it did happen.   

I looked up the play from when Don Mattingly did this when he was the de facto manager due to Joe Torre being ejected in 2010 and saw that MLB disagreed with the umpires' ruling that the 2 trips required the pitcher to be removed immediately and that Mattingly should have been ejected and the closer should have had to finish the at-bat and then be replaced.  Both options are in the rule book, but the ejection route does mention warning the manager to not make the second trip, which would have almost been impossible in this situation as it happened in a split second.  Tim McClelland was quoted in the media as saying that rule is for a disobedient manager deliberately trying to gain an advantage by visiting his pitcher twice without having pitched to a batter, which was not the case in this play.  Did anyone (Wendlestedt, MLB) ever come out with an official interpretation on this play?  

http://m.mlb.com/video/v10115281/must-c-controversial-dodgers-mound-visits/?query=mattingly+broxton

 

 

[DVA7130]

As long as he really hasn't walked far away it shouldn't be an issue. You are right that you absolutely need to make a pronounced warning before ejecting and removing the pitcher after the at bat ends. I always take a mental note of the batter during a conference just to make sure for the duration of the AB.

[Replacematt]

As long as he really hasn't walked far away it shouldn't be an issue. You are right that you absolutely need to make a pronounced warning before ejecting and removing the pitcher after the at bat ends. I always take a mental note of the batter during a conference just to make sure for the duration of the AB.

If he leaves the mound, the visit is over.

Also, don't make mental notes when it comes to trips. Write it down.

[mjr_2013]

It's in the WUM. I don't have it on me though.

A trip begins when a manager or coach crosses the foul line and ends when they leave the mound... Should they attempt to return to the mound after the trip has ended, the umpire should instruct them they cannot. If the manager does make two trips with the same batter up, the pitcher must finish pitching to that batter, and then must be removed. If the manager was warned not to return to the mound but does anyway, he will also be ejected.

[noumpere]

Does it need an interpretation?  the rule seems pretty clear to me (with the possible exception that it says "professional leagues" and most of us don't work a lot of "professional league" ball):

 

(l) (8.06) Visits to the Mound

A professional league shall adopt the following rule pertaining to

the visit of the manager or coach to the pitcher:

 

(1) This rule limits the number of trips a manager or coach

may make to any one pitcher in any one inning;

(2) A second trip to the same pitcher in the same inning will

cause this pitcher’s automatic removal from the game;

(3) The manager or coach is prohibited from making a second

visit to the mound while the same batter is at bat, but

(4) if a pinch-hitter is substituted for this batter, the manager

or coach may make a second visit to the mound, but must

remove the pitcher from the game.

A manager or coach is considered to have concluded his visit to the

mound when he leaves the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher’s

rubber.

Rule 5.10(l) Comment (Rule 8.06 Comment): If the manager or

coach goes to the catcher or infielder and that player then goes

to the mound or the pitcher comes to him at his position before

there is an intervening play (a pitch or other play) that will be

the same as the manager or coach going to the mound.

Any attempt to evade or circumvent this rule by the manager or

coach going to the catcher or an infielder and then that player

going to the mound to confer with the pitcher shall constitute a

trip to the mound.

If the coach goes to the mound and removes a pitcher and then

the manager goes to the mound to talk with the new pitcher,

that will constitute one trip to that new pitcher that inning.

A manager or coach shall not be considered to have concluded

his visit to the mound if he temporarily leaves the 18-foot circle

surrounding the pitcher’s rubber for purposes of notifying

the umpire that a double-switch or substitution is being made.

In a case where a manager has made his first trip to the mound

and then returns the second time to the mound in the same

inning with the same pitcher in the game and the same batter at

bat, after being warned by the umpire that he cannot return to

the mound, the manager shall be removed from the game and

the pitcher required to pitch to the batter until he is retired or

gets on base. After the batter is retired, or becomes a base runner, then this pitcher must be removed from the game. The

manager should be notified that his pitcher will be removed

from the game after he pitches to one hitter, so he can have a

substitute pitcher warmed up.

The substitute pitcher will be allowed eight preparatory pitches

or more if in the umpire’s judgment circumstances justify.

[zoops]

Does it need an interpretation? 

Probably.  Since it appears that the league and the umpires disagreed on the application of the rule.  I'm just wondering if anyone ever came out with an approved ruling on this type of sitch.  

From an article on the ruling:  Even though Mattingly hadn't violated the spirit of the rule -- he wasn't defiantly trying to sneak a second meeting with the pitcher -- Giants manager Bruce Bochy protested that Mattingly had made two trips to the mound, as Bochy had successfully charged in 2006, when manager Grady Little left a meeting on the mound with Brad Penny before returning to calm down second baseman Jeff Kent, who was arguing with the umpire.

The umpires also ruled with Bochy this time, but botched the enforcement in two ways. First, they ordered Broxton removed from the game. MLB officials, citing Rule 8.06 and the fact that home-plate umpire Adrian Johnson warned Mattingly quickly not to return to the mound, later said the umpires should have ejected Mattingly and allowed Broxton to face Torres before being removed.

"I am not of the opinion [that's the way the rule should have been applied]," McClelland said. "The league is of that opinion. It's a difference of opinion in a situation that's not covered. A defiant manager -- in that situation, the pitcher has to pitch. We were processing what had happened [before Bochy came out.] I have never seen that situation in my 28 years as an umpire, and heard about it only once. [Whether Mattingly was defiant] was part of our discussion."

[Replacematt]

Probably.  Since it appears that the league and the umpires disagreed on the application of the rule.  I'm just wondering if anyone ever came out with an approved ruling on this type of sitch.  

From an article on the ruling:  Even though Mattingly hadn't violated the spirit of the rule -- he wasn't defiantly trying to sneak a second meeting with the pitcher -- Giants manager Bruce Bochy protested that Mattingly had made two trips to the mound, as Bochy had successfully charged in 2006, when manager Grady Little left a meeting on the mound with Brad Penny before returning to calm down second baseman Jeff Kent, who was arguing with the umpire.

The umpires also ruled with Bochy this time, but botched the enforcement in two ways. First, they ordered Broxton removed from the game. MLB officials, citing Rule 8.06 and the fact that home-plate umpire Adrian Johnson warned Mattingly quickly not to return to the mound, later said the umpires should have ejected Mattingly and allowed Broxton to face Torres before being removed.

"I am not of the opinion [that's the way the rule should have been applied]," McClelland said. "The league is of that opinion. It's a difference of opinion in a situation that's not covered. A defiant manager -- in that situation, the pitcher has to pitch. We were processing what had happened [before Bochy came out.] I have never seen that situation in my 28 years as an umpire, and heard about it only once. [Whether Mattingly was defiant] was part of our discussion."

There is no disagreement. They simply messed up the enforcement, most likely due to it occurring about as often as the installation of a new Pope.

[Senor Azul]

Perhaps this is what you are looking for, Mr. zoops?

Official Interpretation 159-155: PBUC:  When the manager or coach leaves the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher's plate, "he must keep going and not return to the mound."

This interpretation can be found in Carl Childress' BRD (2014 edition) in section 155 on page 108. The Don Mattingly story is also referenced in a note following. Not surprisingly, the interpretation can also be found in the 2014 edition of the PBUC manual in paragraph 8.12 in a lengthy discussion on trips to the mound.

[zoops]

Perhaps this is what you are looking for, Mr. zoops?

Official Interpretation 159-155: PBUC:  When the manager or coach leaves the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher's plate, "he must keep going and not return to the mound."

This interpretation can be found in Carl Childress' BRD (2014 edition) in section 155 on page 108. The Don Mattingly story is also referenced in a note following. Not surprisingly, the interpretation can also be found in the 2014 edition of the PBUC manual in paragraph 8.12 in a lengthy discussion on trips to the mound.

That could be what I'm looking for, but I don't have those books.  I guess what I'm wondering is if the manager pulls a "Mattingly" and you don't warn him in the second that it takes to step off the mound and turn back around, do you still EJ the manager and remove the pitcher after the at-bat or would you just rule the pitcher has to be replaced after the at-bat?  

[Jimurray]

That could be what I'm looking for, but I don't have those books.  I guess what I'm wondering is if the manager pulls a "Mattingly" and you don't warn him in the second that it takes to step off the mound and turn back around, do you still EJ the manager and remove the pitcher after the at-bat or would you just rule the pitcher has to be replaced after the at-bat?  

If no warning was given the manager is not ejected. The pitcher is still removed after pitching to the batter. PBUC and/or MLBUM rerefence this. There is an "ignore" in the instructions which is what McCleland probaly wanted to hang his hat on.