F1 play at HP

[ricka56]

Just to play devil's advocate, why can't he pick from the rubber to home (e.g., prior to coming set)?  Home is a base.

One of the rules has to take precedence. I believe it is the pitching rules.

[Jimurray]

Just to play devil's advocate, why can't he pick from the rubber to home (e.g., prior to coming set)?  Home is a base.

8.01

(c) At any time during the pitcher’s preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.

 

2.0

A BASE is one of four points which must be touched by a runner in order to score a run; more usually applied to the canvas bags and the rubber plate which mark the base points.

 

Sticky wicket, compounded by foot position allowed in OBR/NCAA. Dead ball, team wants to appeal miss of home. Batter and catcher in position, Ump points ball live, F1 on rubber in any set, windup, hybrid foot position steps and throws to catcher who steps on home. I think we all allow that.

Now R3, live ball F3 in conventional set or windup position who has not started his motion or come set.  R3 starts home for whatever reason, draw a balk, see if  the defense can do a rundown, F3 throws home. Legal.

Hybrid pitchers. I guess benefit of the doubt goes to offense on whether an in contact throw is a pitch, QP, or pick. Most extreme hybrid pitchers can still be discerned to be in a windup or set. Danks was in his windup and did not windup. It was judged a QP. 

 

[noumpere]

Just to play devil's advocate, why can't he pick from the rubber to home (e.g., prior to coming set)?  Home is a base.

Ah ... one of the very earliest discussions on the interwebs.  Who was it from Holland (not Holland, MI), who supported that idea?  Erik / Eric somebody.

 

Anyway, one of the interps / authorities has it that this can't be done.  And, I think it's one of the ones that wasn't around or at least in as wide a circulation way back then.​

[DVA7130]

Ok, I guess the biggest point I was missing was that a step towards home from the rubber is always a pitch, not a throw like to other bases.

 

If he is in the stretch and just throws it, it's a balk; no stop.

If he is set, we just have a pitch (with a good chance of special CI coming)

If he steps off, it's just a throw (with a fair chance of interference by the batter coming)

[Jimurray]

Ok, I guess the biggest point I was missing was that a step towards home from the rubber is always a pitch, not a throw like to other bases.

 

If he is in the stretch and just throws it, it's a balk; no stop.

If he is set, we just have a pitch (with a good chance of special CI coming)

If he steps off, it's just a throw (with a fair chance of interference by the batter coming)

​What if he's in a recognizable windup and steps and throws? I think @noumpire needs (i'm asking) to dig out the old interp. 

[stl_ump]

​The question is, is the lack of a windup always a QP. Take a normal windup pitcher who usually steps back and raises his arms. But occassionally he likes to throw a sidearm pitch where he pops the glove and steps foward as he sidearms the pitch.. Rare, but I've seen it.

​After watching the video I'm confused.  What was wrong with what he did?  Looks like the typical set position, he IS set and then pitches.  What was wrong with it?

[noumpere]

​What if he's in a recognizable windup and steps and throws? I think @noumpire needs (i'm asking) to dig out the old interp. 

​This is from J/R (sorry, no time to reformat):

 

Pitch v. Throw to Home

If an in-contact pitcher steps toward home, there cannot be a throw; there can only be a

pitch or balk (or both).

E.G.: R3 is stealing home. Without disengaging, the pitcher steps forward and pitches,

whereupon the batter swings and contacts the catcher: defensive interference.

Moreover, if a pitcher who is not in-contact (or has disengaged) steps and throws home,

there cannot be a pitch (unless there is deceptive imitation of a motion to pitch, see item 16).

E.G.: The pitcher is in the windup position, his hands apart, and the batter is prepared to

bat. As R3 dashes for home, the pitcher properly disengages the rubber and

throws home. The batter swings at the ball, contacts the catcher (who is standing

over home plate) and R3 slides into home without being tagged: the pitcher has

not balked. The batter has interfered with the catcher's try to field the throw, and

an out must be declared for his interference.

[maven]

​After watching the video I'm confused.  What was wrong with what he did?  Looks like the typical set position, he IS set and then pitches.  What was wrong with it?

There's another thread on it, explaining the call in detail.

MLB allows pitchers to windup with their feet in the set position. Danks was doing that with this batter. Then he did a slide step and pitched, and the crew ruled it a quick pitch.

[Jimurray]

​After watching the video I'm confused.  What was wrong with what he did?  Looks like the typical set position, he IS set and then pitches.  What was wrong with it?

He took the rubber and put his hands together as in a windup. He did not "come set". That's his normal windup stance. 

[stl_ump]

He took the rubber and put his hands together as in a windup. He did not "come set". That's his normal windup stance. 

​If this is his normal windup stance, how would one tell the difference between his windup and stretch?

[Jimurray]

​This is from J/R (sorry, no time to reformat):

 

Pitch v. Throw to Home

If an in-contact pitcher steps toward home, there cannot be a throw; there can only be a

pitch or balk (or both).

E.G.: R3 is stealing home. Without disengaging, the pitcher steps forward and pitches,

whereupon the batter swings and contacts the catcher: defensive interference.

Moreover, if a pitcher who is not in-contact (or has disengaged) steps and throws home,

there cannot be a pitch (unless there is deceptive imitation of a motion to pitch, see item 16).

E.G.: The pitcher is in the windup position, his hands apart, and the batter is prepared to

bat. As R3 dashes for home, the pitcher properly disengages the rubber and

throws home. The batter swings at the ball, contacts the catcher (who is standing

over home plate) and R3 slides into home without being tagged: the pitcher has

not balked. The batter has interfered with the catcher's try to field the throw, and

an out must be declared for his interference.

So, bases cleared, BR missed HP, defense says they are going to appeal. F1 takes rubber, ball pointed live, F1 steps and throws to F2. F2 catches pitch/throw behind plate. Ball or strike called and no further appeal allowed. 

Catcher steps foward on plate to catch pitch/throw. Possible CI. 

The myth that the pitcher has to step off to appeal is false but highly recommended .

[Jimurray]

​If this is his normal windup stance, how would one tell the difference between his windup and stretch?

​If you watch video of any of these "perpendicular" pitchers you would be able to tell the difference, clued in also by runner configuration. The ones I've seen will take the rubber hands apart in the set and lean in to take the sign and then come set. In the windup they do it differently, such as taking the rubber and putting hands together at same time. But there is potential for abuse. A pitcher named Strop was not called for this a few years ago. NCAA adopted the OBR pitching rule and then seeing the potential for abuse put out an interp. It appears MLB might have done the same thing as Danks was called on it.

[ricka56]

 NCAA adopted the OBR pitching rule and then seeing the potential for abuse put out an interp. It appears MLB might have done the same thing as Danks was called on it.

​If MLB has changed how this is to be officiated, then I think they're keeping it a secret. Are there any other examples of quick-pitch balks being called. I think the Danks balk was an aberration.

[Jimurray]

​If MLB has changed how this is to be officiated, then I think they're keeping it a secret. Are there any other examples of quick-pitch balks being called. I think the Danks balk was an aberration.

​You might be right. Strop is still allowed to piss off batters. Announcer dosn't know why more pitchers don't quick pitch:

http://m.mlb.com/video/v158741683/cinchc-strop-retires-the-side-in-order-in-the-8th/?query=pedro+strop

[basejester]

8.05 The pitcher makes an illegal pitch;

(e) The pitcher makes an illegal pitch;
Rule 8.05(e) Comment: A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch
as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter’s box. With runners on base the
penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be
permitted.

[basejester]

MLB can't be "wrong" about what their rules mean, but there's just no way the sideways wind-up guys are quick pitching by the definition in the rule if they fail to rocker step.  The batter is reasonably set in the in the batter's box in the Danks balk.