F1 play at HP

[ricka56]

R3, F1 in contact with the rubber when R3 breaks for HP. F1 does not disengage, but instead directly throws home to make a play on R3.

Is that a balk ?

[maineump]

Did he throw a pitch? Or not come set? Hard to tell without seeing it.

Edited July 4, 2015 by maineump

[JaxRolo]

It's a balk if he didn't come set.

[maven]

R3, F1 in contact with the rubber when R3 breaks for HP. F1 does not disengage, but instead directly throws home to make a play on R3.

Is that a balk ?

​Did the throw constitute a pitch? If so, did F1 comply with the requirements of the set or windup, as appropriate?

No rule requires F1 to step off when R3 breaks, if that helps. So it's not a balk for that reason. Otherwise, need more info.

[ricka56]

I dunno if windup or set...I'm asking for more info from son/umpire who had this today.

[ricka56]

F1 was in set...did not disengage...did not come to a stop before throwing home...balk.

[maven]

F1 was in set...did not disengage...did not come to a stop before throwing home...balk.

​I love a story with a happy ending.

A moral for the story: when a runner steals, F1 may legally do what he may always do. He can pitch to the batter, step and throw/feint to a base, or disengage. These options, and their attendant requirements, do not change at all when the runner stealing is R3.

[noumpere]

Let me point out that if F1 legally disengaged from the plate (i.e., before committing to a pitch), then the ball delivered to the plate is a throw, not a pitch, and you could have batter's interference on the play.

 

And, yes, I've seen it.

[JaxRolo]

F1 was in set...did not disengage...did not come to a stop before throwing home...balk.

​Isn't that what I said?

 

 

[ricka56]

 @maven ...I love a story with a happy ending.

My son wasn't happy, he thinks that F1 (in set position) shouldn't have been balked for making a play on an advancing runner.

​Isn't that what I said?

​You're not a blind squirrel finding an acorn...you shouldn't need affirmation for being right...besides, you didn't know F1 was in the set position...it wasn't given...if F1 was in the windup (often with R3), your response would have been wrong

So if F1 was in the windup, R3 breaks for HP, F1 steps and delivers (to pitch or retire advancing runner), then what?...seems I recently saw (but can't find it...search still isn't useful) a MLB hybrid windup F1 get balked for a quick pitch when he just stepped and delivered. Does anyone have a quick-pitch balk if the OP F1 was in a traditional windup position, sees R3 brake for HP, and steps and delivers to F2 ?  

Edited July 6, 2015 by ricka56

[Jimurray]

 @maven ...I love a story with a happy ending.

My son wasn't happy, he thinks that F1 (in set position) shouldn't have been balked for making a play on an advancing runner.

​You didn't know F1 was in the set position...it wasn't given...if F1 was in the wind-up (often with R3), your response would have been wrong.

So if F1 was in the windup, R3 breaks for HP, F1 steps and delivers (to pitch or retire advancing runner), then what?...seems I recently saw (but can't find it...search still isn't useful) a MLB hybrid windup F1 get balked for a quick pitch when he just stepped and delivered. Does anyone have a quick-pitch balk if the OP F1 was in a traditional windup position, sees R3 brake for HP, and steps and delivers to F2 ?  

I believe NCAA does by rule and OBR recently has called this and less recently has no called this. 

[JaxRolo]

 @maven ...I love a story with a happy ending.

My son wasn't happy, he thinks that F1 (in set position) shouldn't have been balked for making a play on an advancing runner.

​You're not a blind squirrel finding an acorn...you shouldn't need affirmation for being right...besides, you didn't know F1 was in the set position...it wasn't given...if F1 was in the windup (often with R3), your response would have been wrong

So if F1 was in the windup, R3 breaks for HP, F1 steps and delivers (to pitch or retire advancing runner), then what?...seems I recently saw (but can't find it...search still isn't useful) a MLB hybrid windup F1 get balked for a quick pitch when he just stepped and delivered. Does anyone have a quick-pitch balk if the OP F1 was in a traditional windup position, sees R3 brake for HP, and steps and delivers to F2 ?  

I knew he was in the set.

[noumpere]

So if F1 was in the windup, R3 breaks for HP, F1 steps and delivers (to pitch or retire advancing runner), then what?...seems I recently saw (but can't find it...search still isn't useful) a MLB hybrid windup F1 get balked for a quick pitch when he just stepped and delivered. Does anyone have a quick-pitch balk if the OP F1 was in a traditional windup position, sees R3 brake for HP, and steps and delivers to F2 ?  

​R3 breaking for the plate has nothing to do with this (particular play).  If the pitch was otherwise legal, it's legal.  If the pitch was otherwise illegal, then it's still illegal.

[maven]

My son wasn't happy, he thinks that F1 (in set position) shouldn't have been balked for making a play on an advancing runner.

So if F1 was in the windup, R3 breaks for HP, F1 steps and delivers (to pitch or retire advancing runner), then what?...seems I recently saw (but can't find it...search still isn't useful) a MLB hybrid windup F1 get balked for a quick pitch when he just stepped and delivered. Does anyone have a quick-pitch balk if the OP F1 was in a traditional windup position, sees R3 brake for HP, and steps and delivers to F2 ?  

1. ​He wasn't balked for making a play. He was balked for not stopping. We don't suspend the pitching restrictions when a runner breaks.
2. The MLB pitcher (I think it was Danks for CWS) who was balked for quick pitching was winding up from what is basically the set position. He was winding up with R3. Then R3 broke, and he pitched with a slide step instead of a rocker step. That's a balk.

One advantage of FED disallowing the hybrid position is that we never have to guess which position F1 is in, or what his motion needs to look like.

[ricka56]

I knew he was in the set.

​I'll bet they don't let you into Hialeah Park

 

​

[ricka56]

​R3 breaking for the plate has nothing to do with this (particular play).  If the pitch was otherwise legal, it's legal.  If the pitch was otherwise illegal, then it's still illegal.

​OK...I'll rephrase. Do you consider F1 in the windup (OBR), step and throw an OBR quick pitch balk...as Danks was (OBR) and as Jimurray says NCAA dictates ?

[noumpere]

I don't recall the "Danks" play, but if it was properly judged to be illegal and if you are describing a similar move, then yes, I consider it to be illegal.

 

And, yes, NCAA has language regarding this.

[DVA7130]

To be clear. Preset, from the stretch, the pitcher can just throw home as long as there is distance and direction? Can he do this after coming set just like a straight step to third?

[maven]

Here's the Danks balk. He's in the windup, even though his feet don't show it. The balk is for a quick pitch, and miraculously the commentator has it right.

http://m.mlb.com/video/v132292583/

[Jimurray]

Here's the Danks balk. He's in the windup, even though his feet don't show it. The balk is for a quick pitch, and miraculously the commentator has it right.

http://m.mlb.com/video/v132292583/

​The question is, is the lack of a windup always a QP. Take a normal windup pitcher who usually steps back and raises his arms. But occassionally he likes to throw a sidearm pitch where he pops the glove and steps foward as he sidearms the pitch.. Rare, but I've seen it.

[noumpere]

 

To be clear. Preset, from the stretch, the pitcher can just throw home as long as there is distance and direction? Can he do this after coming set just like a straight step to third?

​1) No.  He's on the rubber and the pitching requirements must be met.  So, if he's "preset" he must come set to pitch.

2) Yes, as long as he steps first -- this seems just like any other pitch to me (as I envision the question)

Here's the Danks balk. He's in the windup, even though his feet don't show it. The balk is for a quick pitch, and miraculously the commentator has it right.

http://m.mlb.com/video/v132292583/

​Thanks.  I do recall the discussion / confusion on that now.

[DVA7130]

 

​1) No.  He's on the rubber and the pitching requirements must be met.  So, if he's "preset" he must come set to pitch.

2) Yes, as long as he steps first -- this seems just like any other pitch to me (as I envision the question)

​Thanks.  I do recall the discussion / confusion on that now.

​I am not thinking in terms of pitches, but "picks" to home for a steal. I've become a little confused.

[ricka56]

​I am not thinking in terms of pitches, but "picks" to home for a steal. I've become a little confused.

​That is the rub...you can't make a play on an advancing runner if you are in the set position unless you disengage. If F1 had come set (with stop) then a throw to F2 is primarily a pitch, not a play on an advancing runner (until F2 receives...pitch complete). And if F1 didn't come set (stopped), that is illegal and a balk...as was called in the OP.

If F1 is in the windup position, the legality is not so straight forward. A throw home (whether the intend is to pitch or make a play on R3 stealing) might be called a balk for an illegal quick pitch...others (like me) would not balk that (no windup pitch rule violated).

Confusing the problem even more is the hybrid stance F1. With R3, you don' know if F1 is in the hybrid wind-up or set position. If this play happened with hybrid F1, I'd rule it a set position violation and call a (no stop) balk.

You gotta be on your toes, know what's going on and not be surprised when R3 breaks for HP...oh crap, what just happened.

[noumpere]

​I am not thinking in terms of pitches, but "picks" to home for a steal. I've become a little confused.

​If F1 is on the rubber, it's by definition a pitch.  Apply those rules.

If F1 is off the rubber, it's by definition a "pick."  Apply those rules.

It doesn't matter if F1 means to "pick" or means to "pitch" -- he can only do what his position allows him to do.

[basejester]

Just to play devil's advocate, why can't he pick from the rubber to home (e.g., prior to coming set)?  Home is a base.

8.01

(c) At any time during the pitcher’s preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.

 

2.0

A BASE is one of four points which must be touched by a runner in order to score a run; more usually applied to the canvas bags and the rubber plate which mark the base points.

 

Edited July 7, 2015 by basejester