Is this a catch or a foul?

[Guest Aussie Amateur Umpire]

Pitch. Batter swings, ball glances off top of bat and goes sharp and direct to bounce off catcher's mask or chest-plate. Catcher smothers or grabs the ball before it touches the ground and holds it in hand or mitt.

This isn't a foul tip (strike, ball live) because it didn't hit catchers mitt first. I think it's a catch, batter out, ball is live, But others think it's just a foul and the ball is dead. Please advise who's correct. 

[th3]

its a foul ball dead ball...because it was sharp and direct and didnt hit the glove or hand 1st. why do you think its a catch. You emphasized sharp and direct

[johnnyg08]

Good explanation as soon as I read sharp and direct off of mask or chest protector, I knew that it was 100% foul.  

 

Read the definition of a foul tip.  

[maven]

There are 3 questions here:

 

1. Is this a foul tip? Clearly not: it struck F2's mask first, not hand or glove.
2. Is this a foul ball? Yes: it was first touched by a fielder in foul ground.
3. Can it be caught for an out? The answer to this depends on the definition of "IN FLIGHT" in Rule 2.00

Some of the answers given so far seem to suggest that by answering question 2 we determine the answer to question 3. They are independent. On a routine fly ball to center, if the ball bounces off F8's head and he subsequently catches it before it touches the ground, what would you rule?

[johnnyg08]

I read F2 so nothing else mattered after sharp and direct to the mask or CP.

[maven]

I read F2 so nothing else mattered after sharp and direct to the mask or CP.

 

You need to explain 1 of 2 things: (1) why a batted ball in flight cannot be caught for an out, or (2) why this batted ball is not in flight after striking only a fielder.

[Rich Ives]

 

I read F2 so nothing else mattered after sharp and direct to the mask or CP.

 

You need to explain 1 of 2 things: (1) why a batted ball in flight cannot be caught for an out, or (2) why this batted ball is not in flight after striking only a fielder.

 

 

In OBR the answer is in 2.00 Foul Tip. There is says it cannot be caught for an out if it's a rebound.

[maven]

In OBR the answer is in 2.00 Foul Tip. There is says it cannot be caught for an out if it's a rebound.

What's a rebound?

[johnnyg08]

 

I read F2 so nothing else mattered after sharp and direct to the mask or CP.

 

You need to explain 1 of 2 things: (1) why a batted ball in flight cannot be caught for an out, or (2) why this batted ball is not in flight after striking only a fielder.

 

 

explain it to whom?

[Rich Ives]

 

In OBR the answer is in 2.00 Foul Tip. There is says it cannot be caught for an out if it's a rebound.

What's a rebound?

 

 

You haven't demonstrated any density like this in the past. Is this really you?

[Recontra]

I follow you, Maven, and you're not being dense.  This is the "Ask the Umpire" section, and the "to whom" is our nice guest, who has asked a very good and legitimate question.  He deserves a very good and legitimate answer, and Maven is just helping us frame our own inquiry in order that we give it to him, and possibly learn something ourselves in the process.

 

We clearly don't have a foul tip (batted ball going sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's body or equipment--and not his hands or glove--and first touched in foul territory--iow, the batted ball doesn't rise any appreciable distance above the bat and is also not a "foul fly ball.")  If it's not a "foul tip" after it's secured by the catcher (rebound or not--say he trapped it against his body with his mitt and pulled it out with his other hand--that's a catch, and the ball didn't rebound anywhere).  Our guest asks, why isn't that an out?  The catcher just caught a foul ball in flight and it's not a foul tip.  And if your answer is, "because it wasn't a "fly" foul ball, then how come it's an out when the 3rd baseman catches a line drive in foul territory--that ball went straight as an arrow ("sharp and direct") to the third baseman's mitt?

 

I think it's a great question--and I see Mr. Maven socratically leading the discussion.

[johnnyg08]

The question specifically asks about what is or isn't a foul tip.  

 

The discussion also ends there.  

 

There's no need to over complicate.  

[Senor Azul]

From Rule 2-- definitions of terms:

 

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket, or any other part of his uniform in getting possession.

 

FOUL BALL is a batted ball that...while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

 

FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught....It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

 

Putting all these basic definitions together tells us that in the situation described in the original post it is an uncaught foul ball. No out is possible by definition.

[Replacematt]

From Rule 2-- definitions of terms:

 

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket, or any other part of his uniform in getting possession.

 

FOUL BALL is a batted ball that...while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

 

FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught....It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

 

Putting all these basic definitions together tells us that in the situation described in the original post it is an uncaught foul ball. No out is possible by definition.

Disagree. Using just those three, you either have a catch or it's a foul ball. If it's a foul ball under what you posted, it is impossible to have a legal catch on a ball over foul territory.

[Recontra]

My short answer to our guest (as short as my long-winded self is capable of being) is as follows:

 

We don't have an out.  We have a foul ball legally caught by the catcher, and the ball is dead.  It was not a "foul tip," because while it went "sharp and direct" to the catcher, it did not first touch his mitt or his hands before it was eventually secured by him (legally caught) before touching the ground.  It is not an out, because while it was a batted foul ball legally caught by the catcher before it touched the ground, it was not a "fly" foul ball.  It also does not fit the definition of a "line drive" foul ball caught by a fielder (which would be an out).

 

While there is some judgment and interpretation about what exactly constitutes a "fly" "foul ball" that can be secured and caught by the catcher for an out, my rule of thumb is that the batted ball must rise an appreciable distance above the bat on it's way to the catcher.  Clearly if it goes above the batter's head, that's an out every time for me.  However, sometimes a ball like that can spin upwards with a lot of English (below the batter's head) and many umpire's will still call that an out.  But here the ball went "sharp and direct" to the catcher's body or equipment--that's not a "fly" foul ball that can be secured for an "out."  I also confess there may be a more hard and fast rule on that.  And if there is, I'm sure somebody like Maven will shortly pipe up and clear me and the Guest up.

[Recontra]

I think it's a catch, batter out, ball is live, But others think it's just a foul and the ball is dead. Please advise who's correct. 

 

 

I think my ultimate answer is right, but my explanation of why the batter is not out even though we have "a caught, dead, foul ball" is flawed or at least incomplete.  So, please fasten your seat belt, Mr. Aussie Guest, because I need to call in the heavy hitters to straighten me out (won't be the first nor the last time that's necessary).

 

"A FLY BALL is a batted ball that goes high in the air in flight.""

 "IN FLIGHT describes a batted, thrown, or pitched ball which has not yet touched the ground or some object other than a fielder."

"a FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught."

 However, "a LINE DRIVE is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to a fielder without touching the ground."

 "A FIELDER is any defensive player."

"A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of

a ball in flight and firmly holding it."

 

So, I confess after reading the above definitions, my explanation of why we have "a caught foul dead ball" but not an out, can't be quite right. Why your OP ball is not a "line drive" I can't really articulate.  We appear to have a batted ball, given that a "foul tip" is a "batted ball" and had your OP ball first touched the catcher's hands or mitt, it would have been a "foul tip."  So, I believe my stating the batter is not out, because the batted ball was neither a "fly ball" nor a "line drive" is wrong or at least misguided.  Somebody please jump in here, before I start drinking again!!

[Recontra]

I think it's a catch, batter out, ball is live, But others think it's just a foul and the ball is dead. Please advise who's correct. 

 

It took me a day, but I finally got it, and also think my explanation two posts above to our Aussie Guest is correct.

 

"OBR 6.05  A batter is out when—(a) His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder."  The OP batted ball was not a "foul fly ball" that could be caught by a fielder (the catcher) for an out.

 

As an aside.  The OBR official definition of "line drive" leaves something to be desired. Also, 6.05 doesn't say what happens if the batter's "line drive" is legally caught by a fielder, but that might be just one of those "that's just the way it is, get a grip, and deal with it" holes in the rule book.

[Senor Azul]

A nicked pitch (foul tip) that initially strikes something other than the catcher's glove or hand cannot be a foul tip--it is just a nick and foul. In the original post the nicked pitch went sharp and direct to the catcher's mask or protector. From the definition of CATCH--"providing he does not use his protector...." It's a foul ball because it touched a player over foul territory and it was not caught. By definition it cannot be a legal catch no matter what happens after it touched the equipment first.

 

If the definition isn't enough, then see the following rules which tell us what is a legal catch by the catcher--6.05(b) CMT, 5.09(g) CMT, and 7.08(d) CMT.

 

 

[Replacematt]

A nicked pitch (foul tip) that initially strikes something other than the catcher's glove or hand cannot be a foul tip--it is just a nick and foul. In the original post the nicked pitch went sharp and direct to the catcher's mask or protector. From the definition of CATCH--"providing he does not use his protector...." It's a foul ball because it touched a player over foul territory and it was not caught. By definition it cannot be a legal catch no matter what happens after it touched the equipment first.

 

If the definition isn't enough, then see the following rules which tell us what is a legal catch by the catcher--6.05(b) CMT, 5.09(g) CMT, and 7.08(d) CMT.

 

 

Again, no. If you had a fly ball that glanced off his protector on the way to his glove, you'd have a catch. 

[johnnyg08]

 

A nicked pitch (foul tip) that initially strikes something other than the catcher's glove or hand cannot be a foul tip--it is just a nick and foul. In the original post the nicked pitch went sharp and direct to the catcher's mask or protector. From the definition of CATCH--"providing he does not use his protector...." It's a foul ball because it touched a player over foul territory and it was not caught. By definition it cannot be a legal catch no matter what happens after it touched the equipment first.

 

If the definition isn't enough, then see the following rules which tell us what is a legal catch by the catcher--6.05(b) CMT, 5.09(g) CMT, and 7.08(d) CMT.

 

 

Again, no. If you had a fly ball that glanced off his protector on the way to his glove, you'd have a catch. 

 

 

Some of us are doing an amazing job of over complicating a very, very simple play.

[Senor Azul]

I agree this should not be in dispute--it's Baseball 101. I'm not sure what exactly the objection is. Everything I posted is either paraphrased or verbatim from the Jaksa/Roder baseball rules interpretation  manual. If the nicked (batted) ball touches the chest protector first the ball is immediately dead. I can't find any casebook plays for OBR but here's one from Federation:

 

2.16.2 Situation A  B2 swings and tips the ball and a) the ball goes directly to the catcher's glove and then rebounds to the catcher's chest protector, then the ball is caught by the catcher; or b) the ball goes directly to the catcher's chest protector and then is caught by the catcher. RULING: In a), the pitch is a strike and remains live. In b), this is a foul ball.

 

Thank you for pointing out that if a fly ball bounces off a chest protector it is still considered to be airborne and can be legally caught for an out. I thought this thread was discussing  what is or isn't a foul tip. I stand corrected--thank you.

[Replacematt]

I agree this should not be in dispute--it's Baseball 101. I'm not sure what exactly the objection is. Everything I posted is either paraphrased or verbatim from the Jaksa/Roder baseball rules interpretation  manual. If the nicked (batted) ball touches the chest protector first the ball is immediately dead. I can't find any casebook plays for OBR but here's one from Federation:

 

2.16.2 Situation A  B2 swings and tips the ball and a) the ball goes directly to the catcher's glove and then rebounds to the catcher's chest protector, then the ball is caught by the catcher; or b) the ball goes directly to the catcher's chest protector and then is caught by the catcher. RULING: In a), the pitch is a strike and remains live. In b), this is a foul ball.

 

Thank you for pointing out that if a fly ball bounces off a chest protector it is still considered to be airborne and can be legally caught for an out. I thought this thread was discussing  what is or isn't a foul tip. I stand corrected--thank you.

 

That's the problem. The OP isn't covered in the plain language of the rules.

[Recontra]

Some of us are doing an amazing job of over complicating a very, very simple play.

 

I hear ya', brother, and I'm as guilty as charged.  The OP asked why a batted ball that goes sharp and direct to the catcher's body or equipment and then is caught by the catcher is not a caught foul batted ball and thus an out.  The guest asked, "I think it's a catch, batter out, ball is live, But others think it's just a foul and the ball is dead. Please advise who's correct."

 

Even the guest acknowledges it's not a "foul tip."  That's a no brainer.  On our side, we all know it's a caught "foul ball," no out, and the ball is dead. That also is a black and white no brainer that even many sand lot rookies know.  But the question I then struggled with was where in the rule book was that answer to be found?  Agreed, it's a straight forward play.  It's not a "foul tip."  But that wasn't his question.  His question essentially was, "why isn't that caught in flight batted foul ball by definition not a 'line drive' foul and thus an out?"  Reading the rules and definitions literally, I saw why somebody might think that could be a reasonable literal interpretation of the rules.  The answer is, "because it wasn't a 'fly ball.'" But that answer ain't expressly in the rulebook.  In fact, the rule book arguably says something quite different.

 

Sorry about wasting valuable bandwidth--I clearly wasted more than anyone.  I'm done with the subject.

 

 

 

[Replacematt]

Some of us are doing an amazing job of over complicating a very, very simple play.

 

I hear ya', brother, and I'm as guilty as charged.  The OP asked why a batted ball that goes sharp and direct to the catcher's body or equipment and then is caught by the catcher is not a caught foul batted ball and thus an out.  The guest asked, "I think it's a catch, batter out, ball is live, But others think it's just a foul and the ball is dead. Please advise who's correct."

 

Even the guest acknowledges it's not a "foul tip."  That's a no brainer.  On our side, we all know it's a caught "foul ball," no out, and the ball is dead. That also is a black and white no brainer that even many sand lot rookies know.  But the question I then struggled with was where in the rule book was that answer to be found?  Agreed, it's a straight forward play.  It's not a "foul tip."  But that wasn't his question.  His question essentially was, "why isn't that caught in flight batted foul ball by definition not a 'line drive' foul and thus an out?"  Reading the rules and definitions literally, I saw why somebody might think that could be a reasonable literal interpretation of the rules.  The answer is, "because it wasn't a 'fly ball.'" But that answer ain't expressly in the rulebook.  In fact, the rule book arguably says something quite different.

 

Sorry about wasting valuable bandwidth--I clearly wasted more than anyone.  I'm done with the subject.

I'm not the one that said that, BTW.

The big point I have is that the right answer in this case is actually wrong according to the way the rules are written and would appear to interact with each other.

[Recontra]

Matt:

 

My bad.  I was in the process of trying to fix the misquote of you, when you posted.  Hopefully it's now corrected. Please don't sue me for libel, cuz I'm not insured for that. 

 

I agree with you on the rule book--the right answer "that we all just know" to this very, very simple play is actually (or at least arguably) the wrong answer according to the literal meaning of the words in the rule book.  I also agree with Johnny 08 that I have used up a lot of bandwidth.  I feel like apologizing, but I know that by wrestling with the rulebook on this "very, very simple play," I learned a hell of a lot. 

[johnnyg08]

Except it is covered in the rules.  There are conflicts if we choose to read into it.  

 

The definition of foul tip covers this play.