Batting out of order?

[Guest Todd]

Please excuse the long post but its necessary to explain correctly.  My 11-12 yr old team has 12 players on the roster.  I generally use a 9 player batting order with 3 subs.  In a recent game, we were the home team and when I inserted 2 subs on defense in the top of the 3rd inning, I failed to report to the officials and nothing was said by the other team or officails.  Before the bottom half of the 3rd, I reported the 2 subs.....one for the RF and one for the LF in their respective places in the batting order.  The player that replaced LF got to bat in that inning but the player that replaced RF did not bat.  Our league requires every player to have one at-bat and play 3 outs on defense every game.  At the start of the 4th inning, there was approx. 25 mins left of officail time so I wanted to make sure the one remaining sub got in the game.  This player is my weakest defensive player so I moved RF over to LF and placed this player in RF.  Once again, I failed to report this change to the officials but nothing was said by the officials or other team.  The opposing team scored several runs and went ahead 10-5.  At that time there was officially 10 mins left in the game.  At this point, I knew that I had two batters that had not batted.  The lead off batter in that inning was the 9th batter who was the catcher.  I reported the sub I had in RF to bat in the 9th position in the order(catcher) to assure that he would get to bat.  The other sub I reported before the bottom of the 3rd as the original RF position still had not batted either and he was in the hole.  After I reported the batting change nothing was said.  The batter came to bat and struck out.....as he walked toward the dugout, the other team's scorekeeper and coach called the ump and myself over and said that batter could not have batted for the catcher position.  At this point, the batter was already out and they tried to make the case that he batted out of order and the original starter should also be out.  Our sanctioning rules say that defensive positions can be switched at any time as long as it doesn't affect the batting order.  And it also says failure to report defensive subs will result in a warning by the ump.  I was never warned.  It turns out the batter was called out(which he was anyway) and the next batter in the order came to bat with one out.  We went on to lose the game 10-6.  Was this handled correctly?  Was the other team correct in stating that I could not sub RF for the catcher?

[blue23ll]

As best as I can gather from this post, you reported the RF as a sub in the bottom of the 3rd as an offensive substitute. He never got the at bat, so he only became an official substitute when he took his position on the field in the top of the 4th. Now because he is in the game in that position in the batting order, he can't move to another spot. Please correct me if I misread your post.

[pnewton]

Forgive me if I am not totally following the scenario.

 

It sounds like the new RF (call him Ralph) and the C (call him Chuck) played in the field at the same time, and then that Ralph batted for Chuck.  This isn't possible.  Ralph would have to hit in the spot of someone that came out of the game when he went in, not in the spot of someone that stayed in the game.

 

That being said, on proper appeal from your opponent Chuck should have been called out for not batting and the player after him in the order should have now been hitting with one out.  Technically Ralph never had a plate appearance.

[blue23ll]

Reading the OP gave me a headache. Ok, I don't see a batting out of order in this mess. And I don't get how you can call someone out for NOT batting.

[Guest Todd]

Yes you read correctly. That player was moved to LF in the top of the 4th but was actually supposed to bat for the RF position. My concern is the sub I reported before the bottom of the fourth that played in the RF position. Was it illegal to report him as batting for the catchers position in the order when he played RF in the top of the inning? Our rules say that defense can swap at any time in the game.....does that apply here?

[grayhawk]

Sounds to me like we have an illegal substitute that should have not been accepted by the umpire, except you made a huge mess of things by not reporting your previous substitutions.

 

The last player you entered into the game essentially substituted for the player you entered into LF at the bottom of the third:

 

Bottom 3:

 

LF Sub for LF Starter

RF Sub for RF Starter

 

LF and RF subs play 3 outs.  LF sub bats (he's now met the minimum play requirement), but RF sub doesn't.

 

Top 4:

 

You enter Last sub into RF and move the RF sub to LF.  I assume that the LF Sub (the one who met minimum play) is now out of the game. which means the Last sub should bat in his spot in the order.

 

Bottom 4:

 

You try to bat the Last sub in the Catcher's spot in the order.  This is an illegal substitute.  The Last sub cannot enter the game in this spot since he's already in the game in the LF Sub's spot.

 

I don't know the rules in your league for illegal subs, so the penalty would depend, but it could be an out.  It's highly unlikely that 2 outs could be called on this play, unless your league has some whacked out local rules.

 

EDIT:  For typos.

[blue23ll]

This also shows why it's never good to accept projected substitutions. In other words, don't accept an offensive sub until they are standing in the box with a bat.

[Rich Ives]

Subs replace players by inserting the sub in that players batting spot. Where they play/played in the field doesn't matter. Only the batting order slot occupied.  If Bill is in RF and Joe is at SS  you can place Andy in Bill's slot and have him play SS and put Brian in Joe's spot and have him play RF.

 

For players already in the game, changing fielding positions does NOT change their position in the batting order.

[Rich Ives]

. And I don't get how you can call someone out for NOT batting.

 

That's exactly what happens in a Batting Out Of Turn situation if appealed at the proper moment.

[blue23ll]

Not in the absence of a BOO situation, though.

[Guest Todd]

Ok Rich. So since both players....the RF and C played in the top of the 4th, was it illegal to place the RF who had not been reported into the game, into the catchers spot in the batting order in the bottom of the 4th?

[grayhawk]

Who came out when you put your last sub in? That's the spot in the batting order the last sub should occupy.

[Jocko]

You did create a BOO. And it wasn't handled properly.

In the future, report your subs when they either:

1. Take the field on defense

2. Come up to bat

And I recommend reading the substitutions section of your particular rule book. If you're gonna use subs, you need to know how to do it properly.

[Jocko]

Todd, if your catcher bats in the 5 hole at the beginning of the game, he, or his legal sub, bat in the 5 hole for the duration of the game.

[grayhawk]

You did create a BOO. And it wasn't handled properly.

In the future, report your subs when they either:

1. Take the field on defense

2. Come up to bat

And I recommend reading the substitutions section of your particular rule book. If you're gonna use subs, you need to know how to do it properly.

 

I disagree that this is a BOO situation.  He reported to the umpire that a player who was already in the game was to bat for another player already in the game.  This is an illegal substitute.  The umpire probably didn't catch it because the player he tried to bat in the 9 hole was in the game previously, but unreported.  If it can be established that the player was already in the game, then this is an illegal substitute.

 

If the player who played RF in the previous half inning just came to bat without he or the coach reporting that he was substituting for the catcher, THEN I would have a BOO because he was already in the game and batted out of turn.

 

Todd, in the top of the 4th, you should have subbed the last player (the weakest defensive player) for the player that was due up either 1st (the catcher), or 3rd (whoever that was) in the next inning and then moved around the defensive positions as needed.  This would ensure that both players that had not yet batted would meet their minimum play requirement.

[SoCal Lurker]

Todd, if your catcher bats in the 5 hole at the beginning of the game, he, or his legal sub, bat in the 5 hole for the duration of the game.

 

Not all rule sets.  The LL regular season rules permit a starter to come into the game in a different slot in certain situations -- I believe the sub that came in for him has to have completed mandatory play.

 

Guest Todd:  it sounds like you're a guy who volunteered (or got volunteered) and is trying to work out how the rules/league work.  I'd suggest you coral a veteran coach in the league and walk through how things are done and how to manage the game to meet the minimum play rules for whatever league you're in.  And you really need to read the specific rules:  leagues that allow players to come back in have a wide variety of ways that they govern how that happens.  But one thing I don't think any rule set will permit is to move a player curently in the game within the batting order -- a player who is in the game can't change batting order slots (as others have said, the batting position has nothing to do with the field position -- players could change positions on every pitch if they wanted to).

[Jocko]

@SoCal Lurker - ok. I'll stipulate that maybe LL has some ridiculous rule that possibly allows the original B6 to swap places with B1. But REAL baseball doesn't allow for this.

[Jocko]

@grayhawk - I see it. Actually had to write the damn thing down.

In order to move sub 3 into the game he had to burn one of his previous subs. I think what he's doing is replacing defensive positions and not batting order slots. Common mistake with youth league coaches.

@SoCal Lurker - the more I think about it......I'm gonna need a for instance and a rule cite before I believe LL has a provision that allows the batting order to change/collapse.

[Rich Ives]

Ok Rich. So since both players....the RF and C played in the top of the 4th, was it illegal to place the RF who had not been reported into the game, into the catchers spot in the batting order in the bottom of the 4th?

 

If not reported the new player was still officially in the game when he got to RF and play commenced. He replaced which ever player came out at the time. See 3.08.  So yes, it was illegal because he was already in the game.

 

And if he did bat in the catcher's spot instead he was out of order.

[Larry in TN]

@SoCal Lurker - the more I think about it......I'm gonna need a for instance and a rule cite before I believe LL has a provision that allows the batting order to change/collapse.

 

Rule 3.03 in the 2014 LL rule book applies for regular season games.  I've provided it below.  

 

The substitution rules are different for tournament play and are contained in the TOURNAMENT PLAYING RULES section, rule 10 which requires the starter to re-enter in the same position in the batting order unless he is re-entering to replace an ill, injured, or ejected player when no eligible substitutes remain.

 

 

3.03 - A player in the starting line-up who has been removed for a substitute may re-enter the game once, in any position in the batter order, provided:

1. his or her substitute has completed one time at bat and;
2. has played defensively for a minimum of six (6) consecutive outs;
3. pitchers once removed from the mound may not return as pitchers; Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior/Big League - A pitcher remaining in the game, but moving to a different position, can return as a pitcher any time in the remainder of the game, but only once per game.
4. only a player in the starting line-up may re-enter the game;
5. a starter, (S1) re-entering the game as a substitute for another starter (S2) must then fulfill all conditions of a substitute (once at bat and six defensive outs) before starter (S2) can re-enter the game.
6. Defensive substitutions must be made while the team is on defense.  Offensive substitutions must be made at the time the offensive player has her/his turn at bat or is on base.

NOTE 1: A substitute may not be removed from the game prior to completion of his/her mandatory play requirements.

NOTE 2: When two or more substitute players of the defensive team enter the game at the same time, the manger shall, immediately before they take their positions as fielders, designate to the umpire-in-chief such player's positions in the team's batting order and the umpire-in-chief shall notify the official scorer.  The umpire-in-chief shall have authority to designate the substitute's places in the batting order, if this information is not immediately provided.

[Rich Ives]

@grayhawk - I see it. Actually had to write the damn thing down.

In order to move sub 3 into the game he had to burn one of his previous subs. I think what he's doing is replacing defensive positions and not batting order slots. Common mistake with youth league coaches.

@SoCal Lurker - the more I think about it......I'm gonna need a for instance and a rule cite before I believe LL has a provision that allows the batting order to change/collapse.

 

A starter once removed can re-enter in a different spot. The is a limitation as to when.

[Rich Ives]

 

You did create a BOO. And it wasn't handled properly.

In the future, report your subs when they either:

1. Take the field on defense

2. Come up to bat

And I recommend reading the substitutions section of your particular rule book. If you're gonna use subs, you need to know how to do it properly.

 

I disagree that this is a BOO situation.  He reported to the umpire that a player who was already in the game was to bat for another player already in the game.  This is an illegal substitute. 

 

 

That is EXACTLY a BOO.

[Jocko]

When two or more substitute players of the defensive team enter the game at the same time, the manger shall, immediately before they take their positions as fielders, designate to the umpire-in-chief such player's positions int he team's batting order and the umpire-in-chief shall notify the official scorer.  The umpire-in-chief shall have authority to designate the substitute's places int he batting order, if this information is not immediately provided.

Here enlies the root of the problem.

[lilleaguer]

When two or more substitute players of the defensive team enter the game at the same time, the manger shall, immediately before they take their positions as fielders, designate to the umpire-in-chief such player's positions int he team's batting order and the umpire-in-chief shall notify the official scorer.  The umpire-in-chief shall have authority to designate the substitute's places int he batting order, if this information is not immediately provided.

Here enlies the root of the problem.

That is the OBR rule as well.

 

-LL

[Guest Todd]

I really appreciate the help guys.  I have been coaching my son's teams for the last six years and we have always batted in a continuous batting order.  This is also the first time I've had 12 players on my roster into the first game of the season.  I have always had either 10 or 11 players.  This game was actually the third of the season and after the second game I was approached by an irate parent over playing time so in haste to get a player into the game to avoid further confrontations, I made this mistake.  Subbing has never been a problem in a continuous order with only 10-11 players on the lineup.  Turns out this was a common sense mistake and I feel pretty baseball "stupid" at this point.  

[Jocko]

When two or more substitute players of the defensive team enter the game at the same time, the manger shall, immediately before they take their positions as fielders, designate to the umpire-in-chief such player's positions int he team's batting order and the umpire-in-chief shall notify the official scorer.  The umpire-in-chief shall have authority to designate the substitute's places int he batting order, if this information is not immediately provided.

Here enlies the root of the problem.

That is the OBR rule as well.

 

-LLagreed. Here enlies the problem that occurred in the OP