Non-malicious Contact

[Pops]

I'm curious about everyone's philosophy about contact between a runner and a fielder. I've seen 4 types of contact that I'll categorize 1-4:

1. Intentional and malicious (intending to hurt)

2. Intentional but not malicious (a slight push)

3. Accidental and unintentional (runner couldn't react or think fast enough; didn't have physical ability to stop in time)

4. Train wrecks (totally unavoidable)

The Fed rules address #1, and most would agree that #4 is going to happen once in a while. But what about #2 &3? Do you warn the runner? Do you tolerate some contact? With safety at the forefront, this is an important topic.

[noumpere]

I'm curious about everyone's philosophy about contact between a runner and a fielder. I've seen 4 types of contact that I'll categorize 1-4:

1. Intentional and malicious (intending to hurt)

2. Intentional but not malicious (a slight push)

3. Accidental and unintentional (runner couldn't react or think fast enough; didn't have physical ability to stop in time)

4. Train wrecks (totally unavoidable)

The Fed rules address #1, and most would agree that #4 is going to happen once in a while. But what about #2 &3? Do you warn the runner? Do you tolerate some contact? With safety at the forefront, this is an important topic.

In 2, the runner is out, and the contact is interference if it effects the play (fielder drops the ball or falls to the ground). Other runners return to the base last touched.

I don't see a difference between your 3 and 4.

[tjthresh]

2 and 3 are either INT or OBS. 4 sounds like a tangle/untangle situation, but could be INT or OBS. Heck, most are HTBT situations. You just have to umpire.

[Pops]

I'm curious about everyone's philosophy about contact between a runner and a fielder. I've seen 4 types of contact that I'll categorize 1-4:

1. Intentional and malicious (intending to hurt)

2. Intentional but not malicious (a slight push)

3. Accidental and unintentional (runner couldn't react or think fast enough; didn't have physical ability to stop in time)

4. Train wrecks (totally unavoidable)

The Fed rules address #1, and most would agree that #4 is going to happen once in a while. But what about #2 &3? Do you warn the runner? Do you tolerate some contact? With safety at the forefront, this is an important topic.

In 2, the runner is out, and the contact is interference if it effects the play (fielder drops the ball or falls to the ground). Other runners return to the base last touched.

Is #2 still interference if the contact is away from the ball. For example, sprinting around first after a single, the BR give a slight shove to F3 just to prevent a major collision.

And where does Fed address this kind of contact?

[Pops]

I'm curious about everyone's philosophy about contact between a runner and a fielder. I've seen 4 types of contact that I'll categorize 1-4:

1. Intentional and malicious (intending to hurt)

2. Intentional but not malicious (a slight push)

3. Accidental and unintentional (runner couldn't react or think fast enough; didn't have physical ability to stop in time)

4. Train wrecks (totally unavoidable)

The Fed rules address #1, and most would agree that #4 is going to happen once in a while. But what about #2 &3? Do you warn the runner? Do you tolerate some contact? With safety at the forefront, this is an important topic.

I don't see a difference between your 3 and 4.

In #3 I am referencing the player who is might not be able to react to a situation very well and causes some contact that most players would be able to avoid. For example, R1 is 320 pounds and not known for his running skills. As he is coming into 3B, he has trouble coming to a stop. F5 who has just caught the ball on a wild throw behind the base (and not obstructing him) does not tag R1 in time. R1 touches 3B ahead of the tag, but loses his balance and contact is made as R1 runs into F5. So this is accidental and unintentional. Do you call him out for this in Fed ball?

#4 is the typical train wreck that everyone sees at 1B or at HP with the ball and the runner arriving at the same time. Or it could be the batter and catcher contacting each other around HP.

[semper_fi_72]

Some contact is part of baseball.

Any contact is a HTBT situation.

You have to judge what occurred and apply the applicable rule as necessary.

Int, Obs, Malicious Contact, Train Wreck.

We have the rules of the game and we have to "Just Umpire" the game sometimes based on what occurs in front of us.

That's why we (UMPIRES) use our judgment and make judgement calls.

[Rich Ives]

Is #2 still interference if the contact is away from the ball. For example, sprinting around first after a single, the BR give a slight shove to F3 just to prevent a major collision.

Ask yourself "How did this interfere with a play?"

[Pops]

Is #2 still interference if the contact is away from the ball. For example, sprinting around first after a single, the BR give a slight shove to F3 just to prevent a major collision.

Ask yourself "How did this interfere with a play?"

I agree. If the contact could have interfered with a play, you'd call the interference. In this case, probably not.

And even if it didn't interfere with the play, there was still contact, albeit minimal, and it could provoke the defense and potential retaliation later in the game. I would give the runner a warning and make sure the defensive player knows it was incidental contact. Sometimes preventive action is necessary to avoid escalation. I've seen other umps make the situation worse by ignoring the incident or by overreacting.

Bottom line: This is an example of some intentional contact which can take place without penalty. And, as always, observation, judgment, and proper application of the rules is necessary.

[noumpere]

In #3 I am referencing the player who is might not be able to react to a situation very well and causes some contact that most players would be able to avoid. For example, R1 is 320 pounds and not known for his running skills. As he is coming into 3B, he has trouble coming to a stop. F5 who has just caught the ball on a wild throw behind the base (and not obstructing him) does not tag R1 in time. R1 touches 3B ahead of the tag, but loses his balance and contact is made as R1 runs into F5. So this is accidental and unintentional. Do you call him out for this in Fed ball?

#4 is the typical train wreck that everyone sees at 1B or at HP with the ball and the runner arriving at the same time. Or it could be the batter and catcher contacting each other around HP.

#3 revised is still a train wreck, its just not a derailment as in #4. Before long, this analogy will be way off track.

I think your making this harder than it is or needs to be.

[noumpere]

Is #2 still interference if the contact is away from the ball. For example, sprinting around first after a single, the BR give a slight shove to F3 just to prevent a major collision.

And where does Fed address this kind of contact?

#2 is more likely to be obstruction.

[Pops]

Is #2 still interference if the contact is away from the ball. For example, sprinting around first after a single, the BR give a slight shove to F3 just to prevent a major collision.

And where does Fed address this kind of contact?

#2 is more likely to be obstruction.

And if it was obstruction, does that give BR the right to shove F3? Shouldn't he avoid the contact by going a step around F3 and hoping the ump saw the obstruction?

[Rich Ives]

Is #2 still interference if the contact is away from the ball. For example, sprinting around first after a single, the BR give a slight shove to F3 just to prevent a major collision.

And where does Fed address this kind of contact?

#2 is more likely to be obstruction.

And if it was obstruction, does that give BR the right to shove F3? Shouldn't he avoid the contact by going a step around F3 and hoping the ump saw the obstruction?

You want to make sure theumpire sees it.

I think the players would grasp the situation just fine.

You're "over nicing" the game I think.

[mstaylor]

On a obstruction, if the runner shoves the fielder it then depends on severity. If he pushes the fielder to clear his path hen it is nothing. If he drills the guy maliciously then you have MC which supercedes obstruction and then an ejection.

[AstroUmp]

How can you define non-malicious, without defining your idea of malicious?

For the life of me, I cannot find a single, clear definition of what is considered malicious.

[mtnump]

It is like the Supreme Court Justice said regarding porn...he couldn't really define it, but he would know it if he saw it. You will most likely know it when you see it...

[boyinr]

How can you define non-malicious, without defining your idea of malicious?

For the life of me, I cannot find a single, clear definition of what is considered malicious.

Intent to injure or dislodge the ball is the guidance I was given. Seems logical to me.

[kwiggie]

How can you define non-malicious, without defining your idea of malicious?

For the life of me, I cannot find a single, clear definition of what is considered malicious.

Intent to injure or dislodge the ball is the guidance I was given. Seems logical to me.

What about the play at home were f2 has the ball, glove down, and is position to block the plate 2 to 3 strides ahead of the runner who slides hard into the glove? FED says the runner can not "role" f2 but says nothing about an attempt to "dislodge... as far as I know.

[mstaylor]

How can you define non-malicious, without defining your idea of malicious?

For the life of me, I cannot find a single, clear definition of what is considered malicious.

Intent to injure or dislodge the ball is the guidance I was given. Seems logical to me.

What about the play at home were f2 has the ball, glove down, and is position to block the plate 2 to 3 strides ahead of the runner who slides hard into the glove? FED says the runner can not "role" f2 but says nothing about an attempt to "dislodge... as far as I know.

If he has the ball he can go anywhere to tag the runner. However, he is fair game to be slid into, but it has to be legal. The runner can legally knock him ass over teakeetle, what he can't do is come in and roll him, slide with his legs high or any other illegal slide.

[grayhawk]

I had an interesting one yesterday that fits in this category. BR is trying to stretch a single into a double. I am doing this game solo and have hustled out to the working area to make the call. Ball is thrown in from right center field about 15 feet on the first base side of second base, and about 8 feet on the outfield side of a straight line between first and second. Ball beats the runner by several strides, F4 turns to tag (standing up) and BR, as he is trying to slow down so as not to bowl over F4, contacts him (standing up) and the ball drops to the ground. BR then acquires 2nd and I call him safe. He didn't lower his shoulder, nor did he use his arms in any way to dislodge the ball. Since he obviously tried to slow down, I had nothing. Not a word from either side on the play, except for one idiot fan who wanted me to call obstruction.

I know it's a HTBT, but any comments?

[noumpere]

Seems to be correct.

[jnazz]

I had an interesting one yesterday that fits in this category. BR is trying to stretch a single into a double. I am doing this game solo and have hustled out to the working area to make the call. Ball is thrown in from right center field about 15 feet on the first base side of second base, and about 8 feet on the outfield side of a straight line between first and second. Ball beats the runner by several strides, F4 turns to tag (standing up) and BR, as he is trying to slow down so as not to bowl over F4, contacts him (standing up) and the ball drops to the ground. BR then acquires 2nd and I call him safe. He didn't lower his shoulder, nor did he use his arms in any way to dislodge the ball. Since he obviously tried to slow down, I had nothing. Not a word from either side on the play, except for one idiot fan who wanted me to call obstruction.

I know it's a HTBT, but any comments?

Do you guys use the slide or avoid rule? The Baseball Canada Slide or Avoid Rule states (in short) that all runners must slide or avoid contact at every base (including home). So, our guideline is --- if there's contact, he'd better be sliding. All contact on legal slides is OK and all malicious contact is ejectable. Baseball Canada uses the slide or avoid rule from Mosquito (11U) all the way up to the Senior division (Open age mens).

[jnazz]

How can you define non-malicious, without defining your idea of malicious?

For the life of me, I cannot find a single, clear definition of what is considered malicious.

I know it's not FED but, Baseball Canada defines it as follows:

Contact shall be considered malicious if: the contact is the result of intentional excessive force, and/or there is intent to injure.

[grayhawk]

I had an interesting one yesterday that fits in this category. BR is trying to stretch a single into a double. I am doing this game solo and have hustled out to the working area to make the call. Ball is thrown in from right center field about 15 feet on the first base side of second base, and about 8 feet on the outfield side of a straight line between first and second. Ball beats the runner by several strides, F4 turns to tag (standing up) and BR, as he is trying to slow down so as not to bowl over F4, contacts him (standing up) and the ball drops to the ground. BR then acquires 2nd and I call him safe. He didn't lower his shoulder, nor did he use his arms in any way to dislodge the ball. Since he obviously tried to slow down, I had nothing. Not a word from either side on the play, except for one idiot fan who wanted me to call obstruction.

I know it's a HTBT, but any comments?

Do you guys use the slide or avoid rule? The Baseball Canada Slide or Avoid Rule states (in short) that all runners must slide or avoid contact at every base (including home). So, our guideline is --- if there's contact, he'd better be sliding. All contact on legal slides is OK and all malicious contact is ejectable. Baseball Canada uses the slide or avoid rule from Mosquito (11U) all the way up to the Senior division (Open age mens).

It's not slide or "avoid," its slide or "attempt to get around." Contact is legal - sometimes it's just baseball.