Infield Fly Q

[LRZ]

This situation is imported from the HS/FED section. What would be the result under OBR, since the rule talks in several places about "declared" infield flys?

 

"1 out bases loaded. Batter hits a fly ball near the line between home and first. It should be called an infield fly, but it is not. Neither umpire says anything. Pitcher, catcher and first baseman all stare at each other and let the ball drop in fair territory. It was high enough and any of the three could have caught the ball with reasonable effort. A defensive player picks up the ball and throws home for to a force out on the runner heading home and then throws to third to force out the runner coming from 2nd. Neither runner was tagged out...just the base was touched. After the play is over umpires realize it was an infield fly and the batter should be called out due to the infield fly....what do you do with the runners?" 

[grayhawk]

I don't have any cite to back this up, but in OBR, I believe the umpires have the ability to "fix" the situation if the offense was put at a disadvantage because an infield fly was not called when the conditions were met.  In other words, if the defense got a cheap double play because the umpires screwed up, then they can place runners, based on their judgement, where they would have ended up if the IFF had been called.

 

In the situation above, call out the BR, and put the runners back.

 

However, there was a play last year where an Angles pitcher allowed a fly ball (high enough, IMO that IFF should have been called) to drop in front of him, they got a cheap DP, and the umpires didn't do anything.

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v29095373/?query=angels%2Bpitcher%2Bdouble%2Bplay

 

It's interesting that Fed places the responsibility squarely on the players to know when it's an IFF (play it right, even if the umpires mess up), whereas OBR places more responsibility on the umpires.

[noumpere]

Agreed with Grayhawk.  If the defense gets zero or one outs the play stands.  If the defense gets two or three outs, enforce the likley result of the infield fly -- BR out, runners hold.

 

But, my cite must be back at home on this -- maybe the BRD has it.

[maven]

9.02( c) reads, in part:

"If the umpires consult after a play and change a call that had been made, then they have the authority to take all steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of the earlier call that they are reversing, including placing runners where they think those runners would have been after the play, had the ultimate call been made as the initial call, disregarding interference or obstruction that may have occurred on the play; failures of runners to tag up based upon the initial call on the field; runners passing other runners or missing bases; etc., all in the discretion of the umpires."

[ricka56]

It's interesting that Fed places the responsibility squarely on the players to know when it's an IFF (play it right, even if the umpires mess up), whereas OBR places more responsibility on the umpires.

On a routine IFF, Fed does put onus on players to comprehend the situation (10.2.3G) but it is not absolute. If the ordinary effort is iffy, an umpire might not call IFF, only to change that call to IFF when he sees the result (should have called IFF) and fixes it (place runners) as in OBR.

[Larry in TN]

Is there any guidance (other than the definitions in 2.00) on judging "fly ball" vs. "line drive" on an IFF call?

[ricka56]

Is there any guidance (other than the definitions in 2.00) on judging "fly ball" vs. "line drive" on an IFF call?

Both OBR and Fed exclude line drives in the definition of a IFF.

 

IMO, if its a looper and the ball isn't going to stay in the vacinity of where its going to drop after it comes down, then it probably isn't an IFF. Remember the purpose of (and only reason for) the IFF rule is to prevent a cheap DP. If its not going to be a cheap DP, then it probably isn't an IFF.

[maven]

Is there any guidance (other than the definitions in 2.00) on judging "fly ball" vs. "line drive" on an IFF call?

 

Why do you need guidance? It's a judgment call: you get to use your judgment.

 

Sometimes, you just gotta umpire!

[sdix00]

Is there any guidance (other than the definitions in 2.00) on judging "fly ball" vs. "line drive" on an IFF call?

 

 

For me, if the fielder can station himself under the ball, then it is a fly ball for the purpose of the IFF. 

[Larry in TN]

Why do you need guidance? It's a judgment call: you get to use your judgment.

 

Sometimes, you just gotta umpire!

I don't get to use MY judgement, I'm not an umpire!

As a scorekeeper, there's an area in the line drive/fly ball transition that's always been questionable to me. When I'm scoring a line-out vs. a fly-out I look to see if the ball was more "up/down" or more "out/horizontal" but the distinction really isn't that important to my stats if I favor one too much over the other. In an IFF the umpire's judgement call is a lot more important.

IMO, if its a looper and the ball isn't going to stay in the vacinity of where its going to drop after it comes down, then it probably isn't an IFF. Remember the purpose of (and only reason for) the IFF rule is to prevent a cheap DP. If its not going to be a cheap DP, then it probably isn't an IFF.

For me, if the fielder can station himself under the ball, then it is a fly ball for the purpose of the IFF.

I like both of those descriptions.

Was watching a LL Juniors game last night when the (laziest) base umpire (I've ever seen) called an IFF on a ball hit to F4 that I would have scored a line drive. The catch was almost on the grass and the ball probably peaked at no more than 25' high. Runners were all confused with R2 proceeding to, and standing on, 3B. Even the BU was confused as the DC had to come out to remind him that R2, now standing on 3B, was doubled-up for not tagging up.

As far as the laziest BU goes... He's in C with a runner on 3B and the runner scores on a WP leaving the bases empty. He never makes it back to A only getting as far as B for the next batter. Another time he headed toward A but ended up in the outfield grass behind and between F3 and F4.

[sdix00]

Lazy umpires are thieves. Stealing money from the leagues. 

 

Unfortunately, lazy umpires are profitable umpires without the burden of the cost of training materials, clinics, shoe polish, base pants, .  .  . soap.  .  .

[maven]

 

Why do you need guidance? It's a judgment call: you get to use your judgment.

 

Sometimes, you just gotta umpire!

I don't get to use MY judgement, I'm not an umpire!

As a scorekeeper...

 

Ah, well, that's easy then. It's IFF when the umpire says so. If he doesn't call IFF, score it as a line drive.

[Larry in TN]

Lazy umpires are thieves. Stealing money from the leagues. 

 

Unfortunately, lazy umpires are profitable umpires without the burden of the cost of training materials, clinics, shoe polish, base pants, .  .  . soap.  .  .

 

No doubt! In our league, there isn't any training. Well, in the pre-season meetings the UIC goes over his list of things that he gets phone calls about but that's it.

 

Ah, well, that's easy then. It's IFF when the umpire says so. If he doesn't call IFF, score it as a line drive.

Right! Of course, I wasn't scoring that game, only watching it so I get to complain about the umpires like every other fan!

We have an interesting collection of umpires in our league. Some are good, always trying to be better. Others are just out to make a few extra bucks at the ball park. The latter make for a lot of entertaining moments for those of us who pay attention.

Saw one of them working an Intermediate game the other (chilly) evening in a light blue ump shirt and gray ump pants. That was pretty surprising to me as he's usually out there in cargo shorts (acceptable to our UIC). Of course, he's wearing a RED long-sleeve undershirt! As we say in the South, "Bless his heart..."

[grayhawk]

 

Why do you need guidance? It's a judgment call: you get to use your judgment.

 

Sometimes, you just gotta umpire!

I don't get to use MY judgement, I'm not an umpire!

As a scorekeeper, there's an area in the line drive/fly ball transition that's always been questionable to me. When I'm scoring a line-out vs. a fly-out I look to see if the ball was more "up/down" or more "out/horizontal" but the distinction really isn't that important to my stats if I favor one too much over the other. In an IFF the umpire's judgement call is a lot more important.

IMO, if its a looper and the ball isn't going to stay in the vacinity of where its going to drop after it comes down, then it probably isn't an IFF. Remember the purpose of (and only reason for) the IFF rule is to prevent a cheap DP. If its not going to be a cheap DP, then it probably isn't an IFF.

For me, if the fielder can station himself under the ball, then it is a fly ball for the purpose of the IFF.

I like both of those descriptions.

Was watching a LL Juniors game last night when the (laziest) base umpire (I've ever seen) called an IFF on a ball hit to F4 that I would have scored a line drive. The catch was almost on the grass and the ball probably peaked at no more than 25' high. Runners were all confused with R2 proceeding to, and standing on, 3B. Even the BU was confused as the DC had to come out to remind him that R2, now standing on 3B, was doubled-up for not tagging up.

As far as the laziest BU goes... He's in C with a runner on 3B and the runner scores on a WP leaving the bases empty. He never makes it back to A only getting as far as B for the next batter. Another time he headed toward A but ended up in the outfield grass behind and between F3 and F4.

 

 

Based on the description, this could possibly qualify as an IFF.  1.  On or off the grass is irrelevant.  2.  If the ball "peaked" and was 25 feet high at that point, then this is not a line drive.  I like Fed's definition of a line drive:

 

A line drive is a batted ball which travels parallel, or nearly so, with the ground through most of it's flight.

 

These little "bloopers" are the hardest ones to call in an IFF situation.

[Larry in TN]

Based on the description, this could possibly qualify as an IFF.  1.  On or off the grass is irrelevant.  2.  If the ball "peaked" and was 25 feet high at that point, then this is not a line drive.

I used the grass only to help describe the flight of the ball. If I were scoring the play I probably would have scored it L-4 but couldn't really argue with anyone calling it an F-4.

 

A line drive is a batted ball which travels parallel, or nearly so, with the ground through most of it's flight.

The only problem I have with that definition is that a ball in flight can not travel parallel with the ground at anything less than an orbital velocity. That definition makes it very difficult to call anything a line drive.

I like the comment above about what the ball would do if it fell untouched. In this case it would have continued rolling/bounding into the outflied at a good clip. That's why I would call it a liner.

Of course, it's a judgement call so the BU, by definition, was correct.

[Rich Ives]

25' high is NOT a line drive.

 

On a line drive chances are pretty good that you're out before you've leave the batter's box.