Interesting Play

[T-Rav]

HS Varsity Game, R1, 1 out. BR bunts a ball that is fielded by F2, BR is running a step and a half in fair territory,F2 throws the ball above the BR and F3 catches the ball just before BR runs into F3 while both are on the inside part of the bag. F3 subsequently drops the ball due to the contact.

 

My BU calls time as R1 is now on his way to third uncontested, I echo his time call, thinking he has interference. We get together and discuss a possible running lane violation and the contact which I had as a train wreck but he thought it could be MC.

 

I know this for certain, we screwed up this part. We called the BR out and put R1 at 2nd. My partner decided that in his judgement F3 had secure possession of the ball before the contact, so the BR is out and he called an emergency time which meant we had to put R1 at 2nd base. A brief discussion from the OC ensued but once he dropped the "that could be MC and your player would be ejected" card, OC left a happy camper to have an R2. 

 

I had the contact as a train wreck but could have had a running lane violation if F3 didn't glove the ball before the collision.

 

I'm thinking the proper call, if my partner didn't call time would be to say the contacts a train wreck, BR safe and an R3. But can this be a running lane violation since he was not able to complete the play? It was a weird play that I want to get right next time around.

[Replacematt]

My first thought is that you never tell a coach "It could have been x..." Either it was, or it wasn't. You guys decided it wasn't, so leave it at that. What you told him indicated that you, as a crew, were unsure of what to do and compromised internally. 

 

To answer your question, this cannot be RLI. He did not interfere with the throw or the fielder taking it. If there's any interference here, it's after the window for RLI has passed.

[ricka56]

To answer your question, this cannot be RLI. He did not interfere with the throw or the fielder taking it. If there's any interference here, it's after the window for RLI has passed.

 

I dunno, in HS (Fed rules) a quality throw is not required. So what is the difference if (a) F3 jumps but doesn't glove the ball and (b) F3 jumps catches the ball, but is late with the 1B tag . Is this RLI is (a), but not (b)

[Lala]

You have the best view of whether the collision was in fact RLI or just a train wreck. If the runner was a step and a half inside fair territory, I probably would have got a RLI.

[Jocko]

From your description, I have RLI. HTBT, as usual, but the wording of the rule and letter of the law.......

[JaxRolo]

I'm leaning towards RLI myself. You said F2 had to throw above the BR so there you go.

[Replacematt]

Guys, you're overthinking this, and using actions after the fact to determine RLI.

 

If a runner is running in fair territory, and although the throw is high, they get him, do you call RLI? No. That is what happened here. So, he didn't interfere with the throw.

 

The contact occurred after he was already out. For him to be out, that means the fielder fielded the thrown ball. Therefore, he didn't interfere with the fielder taking the throw.

 

No RLI.

[ricka56]

@Matt I would agree in an OBR game, but Fed POE from a few years back wanted more RLI calls and removed quality throw as a requirement. My understanding is that Fed wants you to consider BR interferring with a safe throw from HP area (not just the interferring of the 1B gloving).

 

If you don't call RLI, then HS mentality says to peg BR in the back/head on the next bunt, which Fed wants to avoid.

[Replacematt]

@Matt I would agree in an OBR game, but Fed POE from a few years back wanted more RLI calls and removed quality throw as a requirement. My understanding is that Fed wants you to consider BR interferring with a safe throw from HP area (not just the interferring of the 1B gloving).

 

If you don't call RLI, then HS mentality says to peg BR in the back/head on the next bunt, which Fed wants to avoid.

 

I've already addressed this. 

 

You cannot call RLI when the BR is put out on the throw. Quality throw is not an issue, because it got him out.

[noumpere]

I agree with Matt that its not RLI.

 

It *might* be INT though, under the "fails to legally attempt to avoid a fielder in the immediate act of making a play on him" rule.  That would return R1 to the base last touched TOI.  This would be more likey if the contact was not over the bag but in the 1b-2b baseline.

 

Generally though, I'd have nothing on this.

[ricka56]

The OP is not clear why BR was declared out. There was F3 catching throw, collision, dropped ball. If BR is out on the initial throw (dropped ball not part of the play), then I would agree no RLI. If there was no out on the initial throw to 1B (because F3 dropped the ball) then it would be RLI.

[Replacematt]

The OP is not clear why BR was declared out. There was F3 catching throw, collision, dropped ball. If BR is out on the initial throw (dropped ball not part of the play), then I would agree no RLI. If there was no out on the initial throw to 1B (because F3 dropped the ball) then it would be RLI.

 

Yes, it is. He said that BU adjudged secure possession by F3.

[JaxRolo]

Guys, you're overthinking this, and using actions after the fact to determine RLI.

 

If a runner is running in fair territory, and although the throw is high, they get him, do you call RLI? No. That is what happened here. So, he didn't interfere with the throw.

 

The contact occurred after he was already out. For him to be out, that means the fielder fielded the thrown ball. Therefore, he didn't interfere with the fielder taking the throw.

 

No RLI.

 

You have to call it as soon as you see it. What if you have a runner on 2nd advancing. Call the RLI and return runners.

[LMSANS]

@Matt When do you call an RLI?  I'm not arguing your point here.  As a matter of fact I agree that you can't call the RLI once the play has been completed, but aren't you going to call the interference when there is interference, before F3 has the ball or misses it?

[Replacematt]

@Matt When do you call an RLI?  I'm not arguing your point here.  As a matter of fact I agree that you can't call the RLI once the play has been completed, but aren't you going to call the interference when there is interference, before F3 has the ball or misses it?

 

No. It's not interference until the throw is completed.

 

Guys, you're overthinking this, and using actions after the fact to determine RLI.

 

If a runner is running in fair territory, and although the throw is high, they get him, do you call RLI? No. That is what happened here. So, he didn't interfere with the throw.

 

The contact occurred after he was already out. For him to be out, that means the fielder fielded the thrown ball. Therefore, he didn't interfere with the fielder taking the throw.

 

No RLI.

 

You have to call it as soon as you see it. What if you have a runner on 2nd advancing. Call the RLI and return runners.

 

 

How do you have RLI when the (potential) interference occurs after F3 has the ball?

[JaxRolo]

 

@Matt When do you call an RLI?  I'm not arguing your point here.  As a matter of fact I agree that you can't call the RLI once the play has been completed, but aren't you going to call the interference when there is interference, before F3 has the ball or misses it?

 

No. It's not interference until the throw is completed.

 

Guys, you're overthinking this, and using actions after the fact to determine RLI.

 

If a runner is running in fair territory, and although the throw is high, they get him, do you call RLI? No. That is what happened here. So, he didn't interfere with the throw.

 

The contact occurred after he was already out. For him to be out, that means the fielder fielded the thrown ball. Therefore, he didn't interfere with the fielder taking the throw.

 

No RLI.

 

You have to call it as soon as you see it. What if you have a runner on 2nd advancing. Call the RLI and return runners.

 

 

How do you have RLI when the (potential) interference occurs after F3 has the ball?

 

You do not wait till the play is over to call RLI. If you see the high throw because the runner was in the way then call it right away.

[Replacematt]

 

 

@Matt When do you call an RLI?  I'm not arguing your point here.  As a matter of fact I agree that you can't call the RLI once the play has been completed, but aren't you going to call the interference when there is interference, before F3 has the ball or misses it?

 

No. It's not interference until the throw is completed.

 

Guys, you're overthinking this, and using actions after the fact to determine RLI.

 

If a runner is running in fair territory, and although the throw is high, they get him, do you call RLI? No. That is what happened here. So, he didn't interfere with the throw.

 

The contact occurred after he was already out. For him to be out, that means the fielder fielded the thrown ball. Therefore, he didn't interfere with the fielder taking the throw.

 

No RLI.

 

You have to call it as soon as you see it. What if you have a runner on 2nd advancing. Call the RLI and return runners.

 

 

How do you have RLI when the (potential) interference occurs after F3 has the ball?

 

You do not wait till the play is over to call RLI. If you see the high throw because the runner was in the way then call it right away.

 

 

It's not a high throw if F3 can catch it.

[ricka56]

 

The OP is not clear why BR was declared out. There was F3 catching throw, collision, dropped ball. If BR is out on the initial throw (dropped ball not part of the play), then I would agree no RLI. If there was no out on the initial throw to 1B (because F3 dropped the ball) then it would be RLI.

 

Yes, it is. He said that BU adjudged secure possession by F3.

Ah, you are correct...post play conference, he did have an out on the original throw...then it can't be RLI. But it *might* be interference as noumpere pointed out...return R1 (TOI). The crew may have gotten the out/placement correct, but maybe not for the right reason (was an emergency TIME really necessary?)

[T-Rav]

 

 

The OP is not clear why BR was declared out. There was F3 catching throw, collision, dropped ball. If BR is out on the initial throw (dropped ball not part of the play), then I would agree no RLI. If there was no out on the initial throw to 1B (because F3 dropped the ball) then it would be RLI.

 

Yes, it is. He said that BU adjudged secure possession by F3.

Ah, you are correct...post play conference, he did have an out on the original throw...then it can't be RLI. But it *might* be interference as noumpere pointed out...return R1 (TOI). The crew may have gotten the out/placement correct, but maybe not for the right reason (was an emergency TIME really necessary?)

 

I don't think we got it right, if I could have another shot at it I think I would say train wreck, BR safe and R3. DC would not be happy but I think that's the right call if the RLI doesn't apply after F3 gloves the throw and it carries him towards the foul side of first base which forces a train wreck. If the RLI does apply if F3 drops the ball due to the collision, then I would have RLI and return R1 and BR would be out.

[Replacematt]

 

 

 

The OP is not clear why BR was declared out. There was F3 catching throw, collision, dropped ball. If BR is out on the initial throw (dropped ball not part of the play), then I would agree no RLI. If there was no out on the initial throw to 1B (because F3 dropped the ball) then it would be RLI.

 

Yes, it is. He said that BU adjudged secure possession by F3.

Ah, you are correct...post play conference, he did have an out on the original throw...then it can't be RLI. But it *might* be interference as noumpere pointed out...return R1 (TOI). The crew may have gotten the out/placement correct, but maybe not for the right reason (was an emergency TIME really necessary?)

 

I don't think we got it right, if I could have another shot at it I think I would say train wreck, BR safe and R3. DC would not be happy but I think that's the right call if the RLI doesn't apply after F3 gloves the throw and it carries him towards the foul side of first base which forces a train wreck. If the RLI does apply if F3 drops the ball due to the collision, then I would have RLI and return R1 and BR would be out.

 

 

You can't have BR safe if BU adjudged F3 to have possession of the ball. 

 

If it was a train wreck, you're right in thinking it should be play on. Now, because he killed it, you have to do something. Can't award an advance base or an out, so you have to give R1 his last base at the time "time" was called.

[ricka56]

 

 

 

The OP is not clear why BR was declared out. There was F3 catching throw, collision, dropped ball. If BR is out on the initial throw (dropped ball not part of the play), then I would agree no RLI. If there was no out on the initial throw to 1B (because F3 dropped the ball) then it would be RLI.

 

Yes, it is. He said that BU adjudged secure possession by F3.

Ah, you are correct...post play conference, he did have an out on the original throw...then it can't be RLI. But it *might* be interference as noumpere pointed out...return R1 (TOI). The crew may have gotten the out/placement correct, but maybe not for the right reason (was an emergency TIME really necessary?)

 

I don't think we got it right, if I could have another shot at it I think I would say train wreck, BR safe and R3.

If you don't have BR out on the initial play because F3 dropped the ball, then (IMO) RLI is on the table. The benefit of the doubt goes to the defense if BR is out of the RL and the play at 1B is mucked up because of BR's action.

[JaxRolo]

 

 

 

@Matt When do you call an RLI?  I'm not arguing your point here.  As a matter of fact I agree that you can't call the RLI once the play has been completed, but aren't you going to call the interference when there is interference, before F3 has the ball or misses it?

 

No. It's not interference until the throw is completed.

 

Guys, you're overthinking this, and using actions after the fact to determine RLI.

 

If a runner is running in fair territory, and although the throw is high, they get him, do you call RLI? No. That is what happened here. So, he didn't interfere with the throw.

 

The contact occurred after he was already out. For him to be out, that means the fielder fielded the thrown ball. Therefore, he didn't interfere with the fielder taking the throw.

 

No RLI.

 

You have to call it as soon as you see it. What if you have a runner on 2nd advancing. Call the RLI and return runners.

 

 

How do you have RLI when the (potential) interference occurs after F3 has the ball?

 

You do not wait till the play is over to call RLI. If you see the high throw because the runner was in the way then call it right away.

 

 

It's not a high throw if F3 can catch it.

 

Then you are waiting too long the make the call.

[Replacematt]

 

 

 

 

The OP is not clear why BR was declared out. There was F3 catching throw, collision, dropped ball. If BR is out on the initial throw (dropped ball not part of the play), then I would agree no RLI. If there was no out on the initial throw to 1B (because F3 dropped the ball) then it would be RLI.

 

Yes, it is. He said that BU adjudged secure possession by F3.

Ah, you are correct...post play conference, he did have an out on the original throw...then it can't be RLI. But it *might* be interference as noumpere pointed out...return R1 (TOI). The crew may have gotten the out/placement correct, but maybe not for the right reason (was an emergency TIME really necessary?)

 

I don't think we got it right, if I could have another shot at it I think I would say train wreck, BR safe and R3. DC would not be happy but I think that's the right call if the RLI doesn't apply after F3 gloves the throw and it carries him towards the foul side of first base which forces a train wreck. If the RLI does apply if F3 drops the ball due to the collision, then I would have RLI and return R1 and BR would be out.

 

If you don't have BR out on the initial play because F3 dropped the ball, then (IMO) RLI is on the table. The benefit of the doubt goes to the defense if BR is out of the RL and the play at 1B is mucked up because of BR's action.

 

 

I agree.

[Replacematt]

 

 

 

 

@Matt When do you call an RLI?  I'm not arguing your point here.  As a matter of fact I agree that you can't call the RLI once the play has been completed, but aren't you going to call the interference when there is interference, before F3 has the ball or misses it?

 

No. It's not interference until the throw is completed.

 

Guys, you're overthinking this, and using actions after the fact to determine RLI.

 

If a runner is running in fair territory, and although the throw is high, they get him, do you call RLI? No. That is what happened here. So, he didn't interfere with the throw.

 

The contact occurred after he was already out. For him to be out, that means the fielder fielded the thrown ball. Therefore, he didn't interfere with the fielder taking the throw.

 

No RLI.

 

You have to call it as soon as you see it. What if you have a runner on 2nd advancing. Call the RLI and return runners.

 

 

How do you have RLI when the (potential) interference occurs after F3 has the ball?

 

You do not wait till the play is over to call RLI. If you see the high throw because the runner was in the way then call it right away.

 

 

It's not a high throw if F3 can catch it.

 

Then you are waiting too long the make the call.

 

 

No, you're making it too early.

 

It can't be interference if they get the out. It's right in the rule--running out of the lane is not illegal if he doesn't interfere with the throw or the fielder. If the throw is close enough spatially to get the out, he didn't interfere. BR has to be the cause of the defense not putting him out--otherwise, you've just made the rule so that anytime there's a throw with a running lane violation, there's RLI.

[ALStripes17]

If the BR is in fair territory with a throw coming from F2 just inside fair territory, FED wants RLI.