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What is with coaches and rules?

mbrown2097

By mbrown2097
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mbrown2097

mbrown2097

Posted
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Older son's Fall rec team.  Coach claims to know what he is doing. Has coached for years in rec and tourney and has a talented son.  Is working on lead-off and stealing last night and I just don't agree with what he is saying.

1. A pitcher that is on the rubber and is not set, "is a fielder and not a pitcher and he can do whatever he wants to try to get you out."

2. A pitcher that is in the set position can do 1 of 2 things.  "Throw home or step off to try to get you out." -- as he demonstrates stepping off of the rubber backwards and then throws to first.

3. You should take a primary lead as the pitcher has the ball, regardless of whether he is on the rubber or not.  After he comes set, you should take your main or secondary lead. 

 

Would love to hear a little conversation on this to see what I am missing.  Looks to me like he misses several 8.xx sections.

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mstaylor
mstaylor

OK, here's another direction on how to handle this problem. I coached a group of kids in 13/14 Pony, the bulk of the team played travel, most for the same organization. This group is good at the mecha

JaxRolo
JaxRolo

"That wasn't you" on a called strike right down the pipe!

Pete Peterson Sr
Pete Peterson Sr

There is no way that if my son was a pitcher, I would allow a misguided coach to teach him that example #2 is correct.

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

I love coaches like that, I would pick them clean. I guess he has never seen a LH step right to first. If he even lightly perused rule 8.00, he would find out that you can do three things. That's like guys that teach runners to watch the heel of the left foot to see when he is committed to the plate. They say that a RHer lifting his left foot means he has to pitch.  

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mbrown2097

mbrown2097

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FWIW here is where I am at.

 

1. A pitcher is "restricted" in his actions as soon as he takes the rubber.  Not when he goes set.  And no, he can't do what ever he wants at that point to try to get you out.  (Fake, Hidden ball, .........)

 

2. " From the set position, he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off of the pitchers plate with his pivot foot.

 

3. Fundamentals, not nec rules.  Take your lead when the pitcher steps on the rubber

Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

1)  Never heard this one.

 

2)  A TON of people believe this one - it's not just coaches.

 

3) If you know the pitcher has the ball and is in "balk" territory (on or astride in OBR) then you can step off. But there's really no point until he's starting to get signs.

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basejester

basejester

Posted
Posted

 

Would love to hear a little conversation on this to see what I am missing.  Looks to me like he misses several 8.xx sections.

 

He's blurring the line between what the rules are and what he wants them to do.   Or perhaps remembering his mentors who did that.

 

It's the same thing with rotating toward foul ground when overrunning first base.  Coaches give instructions which then later morph into a belief that it's a rule.

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zoops

zoops

Posted
Posted

Although he isn't totally correct on his rules interpretations, he isn't necessarily wrong either.  Depending on the age of the kids, these don't seem like too bad of things to be telling them.  If they're 13, I'd say these are decent basics to give, if they're 16 and have played a lot of ball, it's probably a little too simplified.  If they're young it's tough to teach everything at once.  Pretty tough to get into complex rules (maybe add more as the season goes on) in their entirety with young kids, you'll just confuse them.  

 

I don't see a problem with taking a small lead if you've gotten your signs from the third base coach even if the pitcher's not on the rubber, especially if the pitcher works fairly fast.  Then once he steps on the rubber get your "full" lead.  Just keep your eye on the ball and you'll be fine.

 

Hopefully you're not the parent that pulls his kid aside after a practice or game and tells your kid how he should be doing things differently than the coach is teaching...I coach basketball and there's nothing that ruins teams (and the kid usually) quicker than that.  If you have a concern with what the coach is doing, discuss it with him in a mature manner.  He may give you insight into why he is doing things the way he is and your ideas may make him realize he should be doing some other things.  

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immaculate1976

immaculate1976

Posted
Posted

I agree with zoom 100%. I also ump and coach and if you have a problem with the coach take him aside and talk to him. Don't bad mouth his coach in front of him. If you are not going to coach than you have to let his coach do his thing.

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Pete Peterson Sr

Pete Peterson Sr

Posted
Posted

I agree with zoom 100%. I also ump and coach and if you have a problem with the coach take him aside and talk to him. Don't bad mouth his coach in front of him. If you are not going to coach than you have to let his coach do his thing.

 

 There is no way that if my son was a pitcher, I would allow a misguided coach to teach him that example #2 is correct.

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Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

 

I agree with zoom 100%. I also ump and coach and if you have a problem with the coach take him aside and talk to him. Don't bad mouth his coach in front of him. If you are not going to coach than you have to let his coach do his thing.

 

 There is no way that if my son was a pitcher, I would allow a misguided coach to teach him that example #2 is correct.

 

 

There are way too many people including a lot of inexperienced umpires that believe it is correct. Some of them show up here and on other forums and demonstrate their misunderstanding.  If you're at a younger age where the misunderstanding is more common, teach this and protect against a inappropriate balk call.

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mbrown2097

mbrown2097

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Posted

Thanks guys.

I have coached my oldest for years and I just don't have the time to coach both boys.  Oldest has moved on now to other coaches now.  What I told him was that the coach was mostly correct; and probably close enough for most 10u rec ballers.  I read my son the relevant rules and asked him some related questions. He's smart enough to know what is really right.  I don't bad mouth the coach, he's a volunteer.  But I have coached my son for years to do it the right way and this is just off of the mark.  I won't say anything to the coach, but I will gently guide my son torwards doing it correctly.  Perhaps I am wrong by doing this, but I can't believe that allowing him to learn it the wrong way is the right thing either. 

Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

Thanks guys.

I have coached my oldest for years and I just don't have the time to coach both boys.  Oldest has moved on now to other coaches now.  What I told him was that the coach was mostly correct; and probably close enough for most 10u rec ballers.  I read my son the relevant rules and asked him some related questions. He's smart enough to know what is really right.  I don't bad mouth the coach, he's a volunteer.  But I have coached my son for years to do it the right way and this is just off of the mark.  I won't say anything to the coach, but I will gently guide my son torwards doing it correctly.  Perhaps I am wrong by doing this, but I can't believe that allowing him to learn it the wrong way is the right thing either. 

 

Chances are pretty good if he's a RHP and just steps and throws from set he will at some point be balked by an inexperienced umpire.  So it might be wise to skip that one for now.  Besides, no RH pitcher does it any more - they jump/spin.

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immaculate1976

immaculate1976

Posted
Posted

mbrown2097 here is the problem. Your son in a game will pickoff how you taught him and his coach will get mad. He will ask and your son will say my dad said to do it like that. Now the coach will feel like you are showing him up and be mad at you and your son is now in the middle. Take the coach to the side and explain to him your problems and if he is hard headed oh well and if he hears you out you have saved other kids from bad advice.

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Jocko

Jocko

Posted
Posted

I agree with zoom 100%. I also ump and coach and if you have a problem with the coach take him aside and talk to him. Don't bad mouth his coach in front of him. If you are not going to coach than you have to let his coach do his thing.

not at the risk of hurting your kid or getting him into bad habits. No way. If the coach is wrong, he's wrong. And if he's coaching my kid wrong, somethings gonna give. Been there done that. Funny thing is, my 11yo son in the on deck circle looks at me and says that HE knows the coach was wrong. I told him to do what he knew to be correct.
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mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

OK, here's another direction on how to handle this problem. I coached a group of kids in 13/14 Pony, the bulk of the team played travel, most for the same organization. This group is good at the mechanics of pitching but suck at knowing the balk rules. As their coach shouldn't I be teaching them the correct way or is that undermining their travel coach. 

I will give you my take, I'm teaching them the proper way and if that makes their coach mad, who cares. As a dad I don't see the difference. If I am more knowledgable than the coach, why would I not share that knowledge? 

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UMP45

UMP45

Posted
Posted

 

Coaching is a lot like umpiring...it looks really easy and everyone in the stands thinks they can do it better.  

It's just a matter of waving your arms and yelling go, right?  :)

 

That's the assistant coaches job!

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carolinablue

carolinablue

Posted
Posted

 Heard my son's coach ( 10U ) telling them during infield practice yesterday that if they were throwing to a base and a runner was in the way to go ahead and throw the ball and if it hits the runner the umpire will have to make a call. I talked to him after practice.

noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

 Heard my son's coach ( 10U ) telling them during infield practice yesterday that if they were throwing to a base and a runner was in the way to go ahead and throw the ball and if it hits the runner the umpire will have to make a call. I talked to him after practice.

"That's nothing" is a call.  lol.

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SoCal Lurker

SoCal Lurker

Posted
Posted

 

Thanks guys.

I have coached my oldest for years and I just don't have the time to coach both boys.  Oldest has moved on now to other coaches now.  What I told him was that the coach was mostly correct; and probably close enough for most 10u rec ballers.  I read my son the relevant rules and asked him some related questions. He's smart enough to know what is really right.  I don't bad mouth the coach, he's a volunteer.  But I have coached my son for years to do it the right way and this is just off of the mark.  I won't say anything to the coach, but I will gently guide my son torwards doing it correctly.  Perhaps I am wrong by doing this, but I can't believe that allowing him to learn it the wrong way is the right thing either. 

 

Chances are pretty good if he's a RHP and just steps and throws from set he will at some point be balked by an inexperienced umpire.  So it might be wise to skip that one for now.  Besides, no RH pitcher does it any more - they jump/spin.

 

My 12 year old is a RHP and has used the straight step -- not ben called for a balk, though opposing coaches have complained.  Can be very effective against teams that are taught to take off as soon as the left foot moves if the right foot hasn't gone back . . . but I aslo think it is true that the jump spin can be a faster move, which is why it has supplanted the step for the most part. . . .

zoops

zoops

Posted
Posted

 

My 12 year old is a RHP and has used the straight step -- not ben called for a balk, though opposing coaches have complained.  Can be very effective against teams that are taught to take off as soon as the left foot moves if the right foot hasn't gone back . . . but I aslo think it is true that the jump spin can be a faster move, which is why it has supplanted the step for the most part. . . .

 

 

 

I'm a little confused here.  Are you saying the RHP comes set, lifts his left leg and steps toward first without the pivot foot moving?  I thought I've seen on here that this is a balk since the lifting of the left knee commits the pitcher to go home...could be wrong though.

noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

 

I'm a little confused here.  Are you saying the RHP comes set, lifts his left leg and steps toward first without the pivot foot moving?  I thought I've seen on here that this is a balk since the lifting of the left knee commits the pitcher to go home...could be wrong though.

 

Its the word lifts that confuses everyone on this since of course the foot must come off the ground in order to step.

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