Last Time By

[jjskitours]

Does the "last time by" provision apply under OBR. I know it does for FED. R1 passes 2nd when he sees ball is caught and in running back to 1st misses 2nd base. The throw from F7 goes out of play and R1 is awarded 3rd base. He touches 1st, 2nd and then 3rd. Can the defense appeal the miss at 2nd under OBR? Please provide any references.

 

 

[BigUmp56]

The "Last-Time-By" concept was originally drafted for OBR games. It was adopted by FED not all that long ago. In your play, the defense has lost the right to appeal. A runner correcting a miss of a base the last time by it corrects all previous misses of that base. Do a Google search on "Last Time By Baseball Rule" and you will find the original Wilson and Lucy article that was originally written about it. It's archived at the ABUA site.

Tim

[mstaylor]

Think of why Last Time By is important in OBR. Runner has passed second, realizes he has to return to first. In his haste his steps over second, F9 throws he ball to first, then the runner returns to touch second and continues to fix first. The ball goes out of play, now the runner has touched a base beyond and can't fix his error at first. But with LTB he simply retouches first, retouches second and continues to third to complete the award. 

[noumpere]

Does the "last time by" provision apply under OBR. I know it does for FED. R1 passes 2nd when he sees ball is caught and in running back to 1st misses 2nd base. The throw from F7 goes out of play and R1 is awarded 3rd base. He touches 1st, 2nd and then 3rd. Can the defense appeal the miss at 2nd under OBR? Please provide any references.

The general concept applies in all three codes of HS college and pro.  But there is a difference if there is a gross miss.  Say R1 in your play cuts across the diamond to get back to first then retouches all the bases.  In HS and pro he would now be out on appeal at second but in college he would be safe.

[guyinaredhat]

 

Does the "last time by" provision apply under OBR. I know it does for FED. R1 passes 2nd when he sees ball is caught and in running back to 1st misses 2nd base. The throw from F7 goes out of play and R1 is awarded 3rd base. He touches 1st, 2nd and then 3rd. Can the defense appeal the miss at 2nd under OBR? Please provide any references.

The general concept applies in all three codes of HS college and pro.  But there is a difference if there is a gross miss.  Say R1 in your play cuts across the diamond to get back to first then retouches all the bases.  In HS and pro he would now be out on appeal at second but in college he would be safe.

 

had this situation, my question is  what happens if the defense appeals the miss at 2nd but threw to 1st?  

They would have lost their chance to appeal is what I'm thinking.  

[noumpere]

 

had this situation, my question is  what happens if the defense appeals the miss at 2nd but threw to 1st?  

They would have lost their chance to appeal is what I'm thinking.  

 

Why would they lose there chance to appeal in HS or pro rules?  there hasn't been a pitch, a play (other than an appeal), a ball thrown out of play (pro rules only) ect.

[mstaylor]

If they threw to first to try and get the runner before he retouched then they don't lose their appeal at second. It's a live ball appeal so it doesn't affect it in any way. 

[guyinaredhat]

Wouldn't the appeal be a play ?

[guyinaredhat]

The situation happened like this

R1 and r 3 1 out

R1 stealing and BR hits a fly ball that is caught by the cf . R3 tags and scores Throw from cf back to 1b is offline , the r1 is standing on first when the ball squirts lose and goes in to the dug out . R1 is awarded r3

Ball put back into play and the DT team F1 Steps off throws to 1st .

I ask what are you appealing . Manager states that he thinks r1 was past 2nd and missed 2b on the way back . at this point I go over and let him know the way he ran the bases was fine and all was well and we played on .

But for example lets say there was a gross miss of the bag ( cutting across the diamond ). And theanager had a valid appeal. The throw needs to go to 2nd right . Since he threw to first that's the wrong base would it count as a play ad then thy lose their chance for the appeal at 2nd .

[noumpere]

Wouldn't the appeal be a play ?

Yes.  So what?

 

Multiple appeals are allowed and the restriction in the book "

Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or

attempted play" means except for other appeals.

[noumpere]

 at this point I go over and let him know the way he ran the bases was fine and all was well and we played on .

 

Just either rule on the appeal or indicate that its not a valid appeal by saying something like "I can't rule on that yet".

[guyinaredhat]

Ok i think what is getting me confused is that  I still think he thew to the wrong base.  it's not multiple appeals its the same appeal.  What if you have r1 leaving early and the players throws it to 3rd and appeals he left early?

 

Also in hindsight i think I am over thinking this. 

[grayhawk]

Ok i think what is getting me confused is that  I still think he thew to the wrong base.  it's not multiple appeals its the same appeal.  What if you have r1 leaving early and the coach throws it to 3rd and appeals he left early?

 

Also in hindisight i think I am over thinking this. 

 

Your confusing a poorly executed appeal with an "err on an appeal."  If they "err" (which means throwing the ball into DBT on the appeal attempt), then in OBR, they lose the right to appeal.  In Fed, they can still appeal, and will hopefully do so before the ball is put back into play.

[noumpere]

Ok i think what is getting me confused is that  I still think he thew to the wrong base.  it's not multiple appeals its the same appeal.  What if you have r1 leaving early and the players throws it to 3rd and appeals he left early?

 

Also in hindsight i think I am over thinking this. 

Yes he threw to the wrong base.  Yes it's not multiple appeals.  It's not really the same appeal either -- the first throw is, I think "nothing".  Now, that said, there might be some interp that says this is a play, but I don't know of it right now.  So, if it is nothing, then don't rule on it but let the appeal happen if they can figure out how and depending on the level (and if they threw to first to appeal a miss of second it must be a young level) you can give some hints "Coach, I can't rule on an appeal of missing second if you throw the ball to first." 

[Specks]

 

Does the "last time by" provision apply under OBR. I know it does for FED. R1 passes 2nd when he sees ball is caught and in running back to 1st misses 2nd base. The throw from F7 goes out of play and R1 is awarded 3rd base. He touches 1st, 2nd and then 3rd. Can the defense appeal the miss at 2nd under OBR? Please provide any references.

The general concept applies in all three codes of HS college and pro.  But there is a difference if there is a gross miss.  Say R1 in your play cuts across the diamond to get back to first then retouches all the bases.  In HS and pro he would now be out on appeal at second but in college he would be safe.

 

Can you cite a rule source for a "gross" miss being any different than a minor miss? I'm unaware of it being any different (but then I do drink a lot...so).

[mstaylor]

In OBR you won't find LTB in the rules, it is in the interp manuals. The difference between a gross mess and a simple miss is explained there. 

[BigUmp56]

This is the original article as found in the ABUA archives.

 

 

http://www.umpire.org/writers/lucy.html

 

Tim

[noumpere]

 

Can you cite a rule source for a "gross" miss being any different than a minor miss? I'm unaware of it being any different (but then I do drink a lot...so).

 

 

 

HS case 8-2-6 Situation H

[Specks]

 

 

Can you cite a rule source for a "gross" miss being any different than a minor miss? I'm unaware of it being any different (but then I do drink a lot...so).

 

 

 

HS case 8-2-6 Situation H

 

Good cite! Learn something new every day.

[jjskitours]

Here is a Q & A from a quiz that was linked under this web site. Can someone please explain the answer as it doesn't seem to allow for "last time by" provision.

 

A runner is on first base when the batter hits a shot toward left-center. Certain the ball will go for extra bases, the runner runs full tilt and is around second base when the center fielder makes a great diving catch. In his haste to return to first, the runner misses second base. Meanwhile, the outfielder's return throw goes past the first baseman and into the dugout as the runner regains first base. What about the runner?

 

Answer:

On the throw into the dugout, the runner is entitled to third base. However, once the ball is dead, he cannot return to touch a missed base after advancing to and touching a base beyond the missed base. Therefore, an appeal would be valid notwithstanding the runner touching second on his way to third as a result of the awarded bases. The defense can appeal the missed second base as soon as the ball is put back in play. Should they fail to do so, the runner remains at third. (7.02, 7.10a-b-Approved Ruling,5g)

[maven]

Yeah, that's an incorrect application of a correctly cited rule. The "answer" correctly states that, once the ball is dead, R1 may not return to touch a missed base after advancing to and touching a base beyond the missed base. But R1 has not done that! In the given play, if R1 touches 2B during his award, he's good. If he weren't, then the "7.10a-b-Approved Rulings" mentioned in the citation would be wrong. Both of those AR's allow runners to touch a missed base during a (dead-ball) award.

 

The correct application of this provision would be: (a) R1 stops between 1B and 2B when the ball becomes dead, goes directly (without touching 2B) to 3B for his award, and touches 3B. Once he touches 3B (the base beyond the missed base), he may not return to correct his baserunning error. Or, (b) R1 misses 2B the FIRST time by, pauses between 2B and 3B during the outfielder's throw, and continues to 3B as the ball is in the air to double him off. Once he touches 3B, he may not return to correct his baserunning error.

[grayhawk]

Yeah, that's an incorrect application of a correctly cited rule. The "answer" correctly states that, once the ball is dead, R1 may not return to touch a missed base after advancing to and touching a base beyond the missed base. But R1 has not done that! In the given play, if R1 touches 2B during his award, he's good. If he weren't, then the "7.10a-b-Approved Rulings" mentioned in the citation would be wrong. Both of those AR's allow runners to touch a missed base during a (dead-ball) award.

 

The correct application of this provision would be: (a) R1 stops between 1B and 2B when the ball becomes dead, goes directly (without touching 2B) to 3B for his award, and touches 3B. Once he touches 3B (the base beyond the missed base), he may not return to correct his baserunning error. Or, (b) R1 misses 2B the FIRST time by, pauses between 2B and 3B during the outfielder's throw, and continues to 3B as the ball is in the air to double him off. Once he touches 3B, he may not return to correct his baserunning error.

 

Beat me to it.  I had the same thought that the situation posted was incorrect.

[jjskitours]

Besides the base running error where R1 misses 2nd base on his return he must of course correct the fact that he needs to retouch 1st base after the catch. Under 7.10 Approved Ruling (2) when the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base (2nd base) or one he has left (1st base) after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

What am I missing - I agree R1 hasn't advanced beyond missed base, but hasn't he advanced beyond the one he left too soon. Please explain. 

[grayhawk]

Besides the base running error where R1 misses 2nd base on his return he must of course correct the fact that he needs to retouch 1st base after the catch. Under 7.10 Approved Ruling (2) when the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base (2nd base) or one he has left (1st base) after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

What am I missing - I agree R1 hasn't advanced beyond missed base, but hasn't he advanced beyond the one he left too soon. Please explain. 

 

In OBR, it's about what he does AFTER the ball becomes dead that's important.  If a runner is between 1st and 2nd, for example when the ball becomes dead and THEN touches second (for some dumb reason) before going back to retouch first, he is still liable to be out upon proper appeal.  If he was beyond second at the time the ball went out of play, then he can retouch second and then first on his way to his award of third base (which would be amended from home to third once he touched first - but that's another topic). 

 

In Fed, if he is on or beyond second at the time the ball goes out of play, then he cannot legally retouch first base and would be out on appeal.

[jjskitours]

In the OP, R1 takes off and touches 2nd base and is between 2nd and 3rd when F7 uncorks a throw towards 1st base that goes out of play. Where exactly R1 is at the time the ball goes into DB territory is never mentioned. He could have been between 2nd & 3rd or 1st & 2nd, but it does state that he missed 2nd base in returning and not initially when advancing. Therefore, he would either stop in his tracks before getting back to 1st and touch 2nd and then proceed to tag up at 1st before being awarded 2 bases to 3rd OR he would simply go back and tag up and when advancing on the out of play award touch 2nd base and satisfy the last time by rule. My question still remains - can he legally tag up at 1st base after advancing past 2nd base (base beyond) when the ball becomes dead. As stated above in FED, he can not. 

[grayhawk]

In the OP, R1 takes off and touches 2nd base and is between 2nd and 3rd when F7 uncorks a throw towards 1st base that goes out of play. Where exactly R1 is at the time the ball goes into DB territory is never mentioned. He could have been between 2nd & 3rd or 1st & 2nd, but it does state that he missed 2nd base in returning and not initially when advancing. Therefore, he would either stop in his tracks before getting back to 1st and touch 2nd and then proceed to tag up at 1st before being awarded 2 bases to 3rd OR he would simply go back and tag up and when advancing on the out of play award touch 2nd base and satisfy the last time by rule. My question still remains - can he legally tag up at 1st base after advancing past 2nd base (base beyond) when the ball becomes dead. As stated above in FED, he can not. 

 

Actually, it's clear that the runner is between 1st and 2nd when the ball when out of play, because it says he missed second on the way back.  At this point, the runner (who is between 1st and 2nd), should go back and retouch first, then 2nd, on his way to 3rd.  If he does this in either rule set, an appeal will not result in an out.

 

If he was between 2nd and 3rd at the time the ball went out of play, then in OBR, if he returns to first via second base, and touches both his "last time by" then an appeal would not result in an out.  If, however, he was oblivious to the catch, and was running towards 3rd when the ball went out of play and THEN touched 3rd, he cannot legally go back and touch 2nd or 1st and would be out on appeal.

 

So, more simply stated, if the runner touches the NEXT base (whether he is between 1st and 2nd, or 2nd and 3rd) AFTER the ball becomes dead, he cannot legally correct a missed base or one left too soon.