Purpose of the "foul tip" mechanic?

[noumpere]

I agree with the cool factor.. but TWO situations?  I obviously can't even think of one.

Did we ever get or give the answer to this?  I know them but don't want to spoil the party if its still being thought of.

[JHSump]

Please...spoil it!

[Larry in TN]

I have been trying to emphasize the difference between a foul and a foul-tip with the teams that I help coach (and score).  This is in LL Junior division with players age 13-15.  It's amazing, and a little frustrating, how much trouble they have remembering the distinction.  Of course, having half of our umpires signalling "tip" as the ball's bouncing off the backstop doesn't help much...

 

I cover this in practice and explain the reason behind the distinction (ball in catcher's hand = live ball, ball not in catcher's hand = dead ball) but it is still a challenge.  Last time I brought it up at practice was doing a live pitching/batting/running game situation drill.  A pitch was tipped but went back to the backstop so I took a poll, "Was that a foul tip?" going around the horn:

 

F3: "Yes"

F4: "Yes"

F6: "Yes"

F5: "No!"  (My son, so he doesn't really count as he's had a lot of 'extra' training on the subject)

 

The "wrong" definition of a "foul tip" has been reinforced through all their years of little league that it is really hard to fix it.

[mstaylor]

I have been trying to emphasize the difference between a foul and a foul-tip with the teams that I help coach (and score).  This is in LL Junior division with players age 13-15.  It's amazing, and a little frustrating, how much trouble they have remembering the distinction.  Of course, having half of our umpires signalling "tip" as the ball's bouncing off the backstop doesn't help much...

 

I cover this in practice and explain the reason behind the distinction (ball in catcher's hand = live ball, ball not in catcher's hand = dead ball) but it is still a challenge.  Last time I brought it up at practice was doing a live pitching/batting/running game situation drill.  A pitch was tipped but went back to the backstop so I took a poll, "Was that a foul tip?" going around the horn:

 

F3: "Yes"

F4: "Yes"

F6: "Yes"

F5: "No!"  (My son, so he doesn't really count as he's had a lot of 'extra' training on the subject)

 

The "wrong" definition of a "foul tip" has been reinforced through all their years of little league that it is really hard to fix it.

Keep trying

[noumpere]

Please...spoil it!

A bounced pitch for strike 3 (tipped = caught strike; not touched = uncaught third strike, batter can try for first (depending on situation)

 

Foot on ground out of box (tipped = out; not touched = just a strike)

[BigUmp56]

 

Please...spoil it!

A bounced pitch for strike 3 (tipped = caught strike; not touched = uncaught third strike, batter can try for first (depending on situation)

 

 

 

 

This contradiction has always intrigued me.

 

In order to have a "caught" strike, the pitch must be handled "in flight". That means the pitch cannot have bounced first.

 

But the in the definition of a foul tip, the rule says that any foul tip that is caught is a strike.

 

To me, these two when put together imply that a foul tip after a bounced pitch cannot be a caught strike.

 

 

Tim.

[UmpJM]

Tim,

 

Once it's tipped, it is no longer a pitch but a batted ball.

 

JM

[bam]

 

 

Please...spoil it!

A bounced pitch for strike 3 (tipped = caught strike; not touched = uncaught third strike, batter can try for first (depending on situation)

 

 

 

 

This contradiction has always intrigued me.

 

In order to have a "caught" strike, the pitch must be handled "in flight". That means the pitch cannot have bounced first.

 

But the in the definition of a foul tip, the rule says that any foul tip that is caught is a strike.

 

To me, these two when put together imply that a foul tip after a bounced pitch cannot be a caught strike.

 

 

Tim.

 

Isn't there some disagreement with this interpretation among the Evans/HW/JR/PBUC/MLBUM/Childress community? 

[BigUmp56]

Tim,

 

Once it's tipped, it is no longer a pitch but a batted ball.

 

JM

 

 

I get that, John. I'd just like to see a little more clarity in the rule. Possibly adding all of the conditions that would meet the criterion of an uncaught third strike under a new definition of "uncaught third strike". That might eliminate the confusion surrounding "dropped third strike" as well. 

 

But then again, it's not the only ruling that I'd like to see a little clarity added to.

 

Tim

[noumpere]

 

 

 

 

Isn't there some disagreement with this interpretation among the Evans/HW/JR/PBUC/MLBUM/Childress community? 

 

JR used to be the odd man out on this but has come around and I think all now agree -- well except for Big Ump. lol.

[basejester]

A bounced pitch for strike 3 (tipped = caught strike; not touched = uncaught third strike, batter can try for first (depending on situation)

 

Foot on ground out of box (tipped = out; not touched = just a strike)

Both of those can be signalled as "out". It seems like the tip mechanic is OK as an additional expanatory signal, but it's never the result the players need to react to.

[noumpere]

 

A bounced pitch for strike 3 (tipped = caught strike; not touched = uncaught third strike, batter can try for first (depending on situation)

 

Foot on ground out of box (tipped = out; not touched = just a strike)

Both of those can be signalled as "out". It seems like the tip mechanic is OK as an additional expanatory signal, but it's never the result the players need to react to.

 

It was an answer to a different question than the one posed in the first post.

[afaber12]

 

Tim,

 

Once it's tipped, it is no longer a pitch but a batted ball.

 

JM

 

 

I get that, John. I'd just like to see a little more clarity in the rule. Possibly adding all of the conditions that would meet the criterion of an uncaught third strike under a new definition of "uncaught third strike". That might eliminate the confusion surrounding "dropped third strike" as well. 

 

But then again, it's not the only ruling that I'd like to see a little clarity added to.

 

Tim

 

 

In just checking how the definitions worked, I just managed to surprise myself with what they actually say. I swear I have actually read the rule book, and a lot more often since starting to umpire, but it seems the more I read it the more I realise I wasn't actually paying close attention to some of the stuff I thought was obvious.

 

Rule 2.00 definition of a strike makes no mention of a ball that bounces:

 

A STRIKE is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire, which—

(b) Is not struck at, if any part of the ball passes through any part of the strike

zone;

(g) Becomes a foul tip

 

Reading that looks like a ball bouncing in front of the plate can be a strike. Its under the definition of a ball that the bouncing ball is covered:

 

A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at

by the batter.

Rule 2.00 (Ball) Comment: If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike

zone it is a “ball.†If such a pitch touches the batter, he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings

at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of Rule 6.05 © and 6.09

(b). If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if he hit the ball in flight.

 

I think the easy way to clarify this situation would be to insert two words into the comment so it reads "If the batter swings and misses at such a pitch...". Or reversing the order of the statements in the comment: if he hits a bouncing ball, swings and misses at bouncing ball, doesn't swing at bouncing ball.

[basejester]

It was an answer to a different question than the one posed in the first post.

 

Yes, sorry.   I didn't mean to refute your post (which I appreciate).

[JimmyK]

I know this is an old topic but I don’t have a life…. Early in the conversation, it is stated that a caught foul, like a foul tip, is still a live ball but no one noted the difference that a caught foul the runner has to re-touch their bag before advancing but a foul tip is simply a caught strike that touched the bat (and possibly made some type of sound). 

Is this ONE reason we signal it?

(it’s late and maybe I missed someone pointing this out)

[concertman1971]

I love re-reading this and seeing all of the old school members who used to post when i was just a young lurker on this site!

[JimmyK]

I think the "9 years later..." above my post is a nice touch.

[mac266]

On 8/6/2013 at 2:48 PM, stl_ump said:

But if the ball is caught... it's still live.  Ping (or crack) doesn't matter. 

It absolutely matters when someone thinks it's a foul ball rather than a foul tip.

[BigBlue4u]

On 8/6/2013 at 1:48 PM, stl_ump said:

But if the ball is caught... it's still live.  Ping (or crack) doesn't matter. 

That's not the point.  The point is that the umpire is indicating the ball tipped the bat, not the catcher's glove.